As long as measures are put in place to stop clubs who can't afford to spend that, us included, then it's a good idea. In fact why bother with a cap level at all? Just say that all clubs can spend 50% of their income on players wages.

Pemps for Prime Miister

How many leagues do you know in any sport where the whole league is in contention for a spot in the top 4 or 5 with two thirds of the season gone? Even in a well structured league it doesn't happen.

Your answer of "improve and compete" works at the individual club level, but if a couple of teams get better, somebody else will slip out of contention and their matches will be meaningless instead. I'm not saying this because I want to reward the clubs themeselves. Meaningless matches are no good when you're trying to market the competition as a whole.

The current system is not perfect either. The best solution, IMO, is to try to drag the quality of the Championship up to a higher level. You could then go back to P&R with a viable top 5 play-off - which I think is by far the best play-off format we've had in my lifetime.

Surely you are ancient and loyal enough to remember the old Premiership? An end of season seeded knockout competition for the top 8 teams? You should remember, it was around in Wigan's glory days and most of the winners' spoils will be gathering dust quietly somewhere at the back of the Wigan trophy cabinet. It doesn't exist anymore. And it doesn't exist because after the novelty wore off, fans, players, sponsors and media were disinterested in a second or third tier additional competition at the end of the season. If you separate the play-offs from the league, you should scrap them altogether.

Of course the Challenge Cup doesn't detract from the SL Grand Final, its a different competition so not a valid comparison.

I agree the top 8 system is not perfect, but you seem to be missing the fact that 1-4 get a second chance, so how finishing 5th is 'easier' than 4th is a mystery to me. Just because Wigan couldn't use their advantage doesn't mean there isn't one.

What extra money?

It's a cap not a minimum spend. If clubs can afford it then they will use it, if they cannot then they won't.

It's simple isn't it?

If there is to be a review then it should cover the three competitions. That's if it is considered there are three comps and not two.

Super League,
Challenge Cup
Grand Final Play Offs.

Super League should to me remain at 14 clubs and each should play other clubs home and away making 26 fixtures. A league where everyone plays on a equal basis. The "Magic" weekend should be cancelled as a Super League Fixture.

Challenge Cup. The competition needs to be made more competitive. Super league clubs should come in at the last 16 stage.
Fourteen SL clubs plus two Championship Clubs. Sixteen clubs, eight games over the two days. The draw for the quarter finals made after the final whilstle of the final game. Eight knockout C Cup games would be a sell out for the two days.

Grand Final Play Offs.
There are poor crowds for the rounds prior to the final which is very much a great event in the RL calendar and last week drew again a crowd of over 70k.
This indicates fans are not interested in paying for games that are not knock out and competitive and the series is a week too long. To make it more competitive the top eight should run with 1 v 8, 2 v 7 etc. So the first week we have four games, second week two and then the final. Win you're through, lose and you go out.

The salary cap needs to be re-addressed as it has failed in it's remit of stopping clubs going into administration. Also it has failed to achieve a better spread of players to make a more competitive Super League.
Catagories of "Club Trained", "Federation Trained" and "Non Federation" players needs to be looked at. Instead of three years at a club by age 21 to considered a club trained player that should be increased to six years which would stop certain clubs picking the best talent around at 16-18 years of age then being able to class them as "Club Trained". That would give us a far better spread of players. Especially for clubs like Cas & Wakey who produce untold amounts of talent and then have them plundered by wealthier clubs.

Can go on but that's enough!

Quote ="XBrettKennyX"What extra money? It's a cap not a minimum spend. If clubs can afford it then they will use it, if they cannot then they won't. It's simple isn't it?'" viewtopic.php?p=17161839&tsmp=1350065827#p17161839

Quote ="XBrettKennyX"What extra money? It's a cap not a minimum spend. If clubs can afford it then they will use it, if they cannot then they won't. It's simple isn't it?'" viewtopic.php?p=17161839&tsmp=1350065827#p17161839

As to the advantage doing well in the league gives - there isn't any. There is no difference between 1st and 2nd except the club call gimmick and if you finish 5th you get an easy game at home v 8th while 4th is away at 1st. Any team who needed two points to finish 4th in the last game of the season will throw that game. Guaranteed
........................................................................................................................................

I have deleted the first part of Davos post because it was the last bit above which stood out which made me think.

Leeds last 4 fixtures gave one the impression that they should be aiming for at least 4th place,what bad luck they had.
They lost 3 out of the 4 and finished 5th.

The fact is there isn't an easy answer and no solution is going to please everyone. The RFL can't just keep the current league format but revert back to a top 5/6 playoff structure as it leaves too many teams with nothing to play for, so you would need to bring back automatic P+R to keep it interesting at the bottom, but that is going to result in teams yo-yoing between the divisions and swapping players etc etc.

Then you'd have to look at reducing the amount of teams in SL, but who goes? Everyone has a license for 2 more years (except Bradford). So then what, mergers? - not going to happen.

FWIW of the 11 issues raised on the OP I agree with all bar the automatic P+R one. The fact is someone needs to take the RFL as an organisation by the scruff of the neck and make wholesale changes across the board. Some clubs won't like the outcome but they are needed to keep the sport competitive with other codes.

The best idea I've seen that keeps coming up time and time again is a "two tiered" SL.

They would only have themselves to blame though. Far too many clubs are sat on their arris knowing they're safe as houses because the RFL don't have the balls to do anything different and every time one of the big clubs wants to change something they'll be out voted.

I've posted my ideas numerous times but whoever takes over needs to speak to every club in SL and ask them "Why should you be in Super League?" Forget that they have a licence or that they've promised a new ground by 2065. What will they offer in 2013. If the answer isn't good enough, then sorry you're out.

[uThere used to be a saying in the 80's[/u:

Rugby Union - An amateur game ran by professionals.
Rugby League - A professional game ran by amateurs.

Sadly for us, Union has moved with the times and is now lightyears ahead of our game at club level, whereas League slowly trundles on regardless.

Not just at club level though mate. We'll get a combined 60-70,000 for this Tri Nations thing and call it a success. England RU will play three games infront of 80,000.

Union has always been way ahead of us internationally. I'm talking about at club level now with these European cup competitions they have, massive massive money every year!

I really don't get this idea we need to keep it interesting at the bottom. It is the tail wagging the dog. If a team's season ends early when we have a cup and a league to play for then its because they are a poor side and they need to improve.

I have not got the time or inclination to work it out but I bet given Leeds lost 11 games, Hull who finished 6th 10, Hudds 13 and Wakey 14 the season would not have ended for the 6th 7th and 8th places sides as early as you may think.

What I am certain of is the old top 5 system will have all the teams going at all league games full tilt for much longer than a top 8 system does.



I think unless some of the senior figures in the RFL don't like the outcome of any review i.e. it recommends they leave we will never progress.



You can fiddle with the structure all you want but it all boils down to one thing, money (or rather the lack of it).

none of it will ever happen because Gary Heatherington wont allow it. A team being crowned champions based on form over a season. That wont suit Leeds so it wont suit the RFL.

Quote ="caswigan"As I understand Maurice Watkin is overseeing a complete review of Rugby league after 10 years of Richard Lewis’s tenure. =#8000FFThe Watkin report is completed and is not as full a review as you suggest. The introduction says "It is important to stress at the outset that this is a review of the sport’s governance structure. It is not a review of strategy and policy or executive performance." That means that it doesn't cover most of the areas raised below. However it acknowledges that they need thinking about by stating, "Whilst this document is first and foremost a Governance Review, it has also been quite clear from the consultation process that a further discussion about the direction, vision and strategy for the sport for the next five to 10 years should quickly follow, focusing particularly on the size and structure of the leagues, licensing and promotion/relegation, the sustainability of clubs and our approach to expansion. www.therfl.co.uk/~rflmedia/docs/ ... Review.pdf . In my opinion the following areas need addressing immediately otherwise our great game will go into further decline. 1.Super league Format (Structure) to be changed from 14 clubs to 12 to increase competition and quality of games. =#8000FFAgreed 1a. To compensate for loss of four fixtures introduce a mid season competition including championship clubs e.g. Regal Trophy or Lancs Cup as previously. Super league clubs to be handicapped e.g. with players under 25 only qualifying to play.=#8000FF The season needs to be reduced to improve quality and intensity and reduce burnout. N.B. The Aussie season is 7 months in total, it starts after ours and ends before. 2. Reintroduce promotion and relegation, 1up and 1 down or even a play off between bottom and top clubs for the right of a Super league place.=#8000FF Not feasible whilst we have such financial disparity between leagues. 3. Salary Cap to be increased to a more realistic level (at least £2 million) so that we can compete with RU and NRL. =#8000FFAgreed if we can rely on clubs to efficiently manage their finances and bring in new money ! But the underperforming clubs would do better to spend any additional money on developing their player academies. 4. Super League leaders to be crowned League Champions with a suitable trophy and prize money similar to CC final winners, The most consistent team over the season must be rewarded and recognised as such.=#8000FF It's a pity but to promote the Grand Final winners as supreme champions it's necessary to diminish the achievement of winning the league. Those with long memories might agree that after the divisional structure was created in 1973, the Premiership was mostly an end of season marginal competition. There's still scope however to give greater reward by making it easier for the league leaders to qualify for the Grand Final. 5. Challenge Cup final to be moved back to May to replace the contrived Magic Weekend and create a bigger gap between major finals. Magic weekend has always been an unfair fixture arrangement with some clubs having easier games. =#8000FFOnce we moved to a summer season, there was no credibility to holding the Challenge Cup final in May. Teams were playing cup matches before league games. In 1997, Wigan's first match of the season was a loss to Saints in a Challenge Cup derby at Knowsley Road - what a load of fun that was ! For most of its history, rugby league has had a distorted league, i.e. not all teams playing one another. Intriguingly it's the only valid justification for a play-off system, like the NFL and NRL and our own Championship/Premiership play-off. 6. Grand final play off format back to top 5 only. =#8000FFWould love it, in fact in my view, the only legitimate play off format but once the system has no P&R, the RFL will insist on keeping more teams interested to the season end. 7. Pricing of CC and Play off games to be discounted with rewards for loyalty e.g. season ticket holders. =#8000FFAgreed but its clubs who need to agree not the RFL. 8. Refereeing inconsistencies to be addressed. =#8000FFNirvana but we can always hope. 9. A video referee to be made available at all Super league games, this would ensure all matches are treated equally, not just TV games. =#8000FFIt would cost but it's an easy way for the sport to improve consistency. When Sky first broadcast Championship 1, no fee was paid to the RFL but they estimated the cost was £250,000 over the season, i.e. for one additional game per week. 10. Video refereeing decisions to be consistent with clarification of his role with a clear definition of when and what he can intervene for. A transcript or voice recording of all communications between the Video Ref and Referee to be made available after every game.=#8000FF Agreed, in fact the video referee should play no part in any decision except for whether or not a try has been scored, i.e. none of this whispers in the earpiece stuff. 11. The disciplinary - Judiciary panel to be more transparent and consistent with punishments e.g. Rangi Chase elbow to jaw causing a serious injury not sent off, on report 3 match ban. Michael McIlorum late high tackle no injury caused, Red card given plus 3 match ban. =#8000FFAll panels have an element of discretion since they make a subjective decision based on the evidence presented. The RFL deserves recognition for the way in which it openly and speedily publishes decisions of the judiciary panel but it could go further by filming the process and making that info publically available. .'"

Quote ="caswigan"As I understand Maurice Watkin is overseeing a complete review of Rugby league after 10 years of Richard Lewis’s tenure. =#8000FFThe Watkin report is completed and is not as full a review as you suggest. The introduction says "It is important to stress at the outset that this is a review of the sport’s governance structure. It is not a review of strategy and policy or executive performance." That means that it doesn't cover most of the areas raised below. However it acknowledges that they need thinking about by stating, "Whilst this document is first and foremost a Governance Review, it has also been quite clear from the consultation process that a further discussion about the direction, vision and strategy for the sport for the next five to 10 years should quickly follow, focusing particularly on the size and structure of the leagues, licensing and promotion/relegation, the sustainability of clubs and our approach to expansion. www.therfl.co.uk/~rflmedia/docs/ ... Review.pdf . In my opinion the following areas need addressing immediately otherwise our great game will go into further decline. 1.Super league Format (Structure) to be changed from 14 clubs to 12 to increase competition and quality of games. =#8000FFAgreed 1a. To compensate for loss of four fixtures introduce a mid season competition including championship clubs e.g. Regal Trophy or Lancs Cup as previously. Super league clubs to be handicapped e.g. with players under 25 only qualifying to play.=#8000FF The season needs to be reduced to improve quality and intensity and reduce burnout. N.B. The Aussie season is 7 months in total, it starts after ours and ends before. 2. Reintroduce promotion and relegation, 1up and 1 down or even a play off between bottom and top clubs for the right of a Super league place.=#8000FF Not feasible whilst we have such financial disparity between leagues. 3. Salary Cap to be increased to a more realistic level (at least £2 million) so that we can compete with RU and NRL. =#8000FFAgreed if we can rely on clubs to efficiently manage their finances and bring in new money ! But the underperforming clubs would do better to spend any additional money on developing their player academies. 4. Super League leaders to be crowned League Champions with a suitable trophy and prize money similar to CC final winners, The most consistent team over the season must be rewarded and recognised as such.=#8000FF It's a pity but to promote the Grand Final winners as supreme champions it's necessary to diminish the achievement of winning the league. Those with long memories might agree that after the divisional structure was created in 1973, the Premiership was mostly an end of season marginal competition. There's still scope however to give greater reward by making it easier for the league leaders to qualify for the Grand Final. 5. Challenge Cup final to be moved back to May to replace the contrived Magic Weekend and create a bigger gap between major finals. Magic weekend has always been an unfair fixture arrangement with some clubs having easier games. =#8000FFOnce we moved to a summer season, there was no credibility to holding the Challenge Cup final in May. Teams were playing cup matches before league games. In 1997, Wigan's first match of the season was a loss to Saints in a Challenge Cup derby at Knowsley Road - what a load of fun that was ! For most of its history, rugby league has had a distorted league, i.e. not all teams playing one another. Intriguingly it's the only valid justification for a play-off system, like the NFL and NRL and our own Championship/Premiership play-off. 6. Grand final play off format back to top 5 only. =#8000FFWould love it, in fact in my view, the only legitimate play off format but once the system has no P&R, the RFL will insist on keeping more teams interested to the season end. 7. Pricing of CC and Play off games to be discounted with rewards for loyalty e.g. season ticket holders. =#8000FFAgreed but its clubs who need to agree not the RFL. 8. Refereeing inconsistencies to be addressed. =#8000FFNirvana but we can always hope. 9. A video referee to be made available at all Super league games, this would ensure all matches are treated equally, not just TV games. =#8000FFIt would cost but it's an easy way for the sport to improve consistency. When Sky first broadcast Championship 1, no fee was paid to the RFL but they estimated the cost was £250,000 over the season, i.e. for one additional game per week. 10. Video refereeing decisions to be consistent with clarification of his role with a clear definition of when and what he can intervene for. A transcript or voice recording of all communications between the Video Ref and Referee to be made available after every game.=#8000FF Agreed, in fact the video referee should play no part in any decision except for whether or not a try has been scored, i.e. none of this whispers in the earpiece stuff. 11. The disciplinary - Judiciary panel to be more transparent and consistent with punishments e.g. Rangi Chase elbow to jaw causing a serious injury not sent off, on report 3 match ban. Michael McIlorum late high tackle no injury caused, Red card given plus 3 match ban. =#8000FFAll panels have an element of discretion since they make a subjective decision based on the evidence presented. The RFL deserves recognition for the way in which it openly and speedily publishes decisions of the judiciary panel but it could go further by filming the process and making that info publically available. .'"

Really? so, that means you think the team that came top this year should be the champions. Who was that again? Ah yes, Wigan! What a coincidence!

1.Super league Format (Structure) to be changed from 14 clubs to 12 to increase competition and quality of games.

The clubs need the existing number of games to generate sponsorship and income. But yes I agree some games are poor.

1a. To compensate for loss of four fixtures introduce a mid season competition including championship clubs e.g. Regal Trophy or Lancs Cup as previously. Super league clubs to be handicapped e.g. with players under 25 only qualifying to play.

Those cups were poorly supported hence one of the reasons why they were shelved. Look at the Challenge Cup and early play off's, supporters want season ticket prices and not extra worthless cup games.

3. Salary Cap to be increased to a more realistic level (at least £2 million) so that we can compete with RU and NRL.

How could this be paid for with fewer home games and less tv money due to the smaller number of games. Not all teams can afford the CAP now, and some break it .

4. Super League leaders to be crowned League Champions with a suitable trophy and prize money similar to CC final winners, The most consistent team over the season must be rewarded and recognised as such.

The most consistent team is recognised with the shield, the main competition is the GRAND FINAL. There is not enough money in the game to keep extending the costs. Compare this with Football and the champions league where you do not have to be a champion team to enter, this is never questioned.

5. Challenge Cup final to be moved back to May to replace the contrived Magic Weekend and create a bigger gap between major finals. Magic weekend has always been an unfair fixture arrangement with some clubs having easier games.

YES totally agree Springbank Weekend is the best time..

6. Grand final play off format back to top 5 only.

Then you have 9 teams with nothing to play for and would roll over giving a distorted tilt to the league, longer to play for then more interest for more supporters and TV companies.

7. Pricing of CC and Play off games to be discounted with rewards for loyalty e.g. season ticket holders. All ready are with Entry for Juniors set at £ 5.00 and season ticket holders getting free challenge cup games.

8. Refereeing inconsistencies to be addressed.

That will never happen as they are human and we all see things differently..

9. A video referee to be made available at all Super league games, this would ensure all matches are treated equally, not just TV games.

More refs would be needed and that would introduce more inconsistencies, but the cost would be how much.

10. Video refereeing decisions to be consistent with clarification of his role with a clear definition of when and what he can intervene for. A transcript or voice recording of all communications between the Video Ref and Referee to be made available after every game.

The video ref should have more power when it comes to fowl play and off the ball incidents. Tell SKY to stop criticising these glaring mistakes by the refs that they pick up on after the third reply and then say how did he miss that.

11. The disciplinary - Judiciary panel to be more transparent and consistent with punishments e.g. Rangi Chase elbow to jaw causing a serious injury not sent off, on report 3 match ban. Michael McIlorum late high tackle no injury caused, Red card given plus 3 match ban.

Yes I agree with this and I am glad you did not compare McIlorum to Mag's. If a player is injured then the offending player should be banned for the time the other injured player is out PLUS his suspension.

No harm in giving the league leaders a more prestigious trophy, but the majority of the history of Rugby League has "The Champions" as those who progress through play offs and win.

Always thought a informal agreement to have between the clubs would be to have the Super League grand finalist vs Challenge Cup Finalist in a preseason match (a la Community Shield).

So once again that would be Leeds v Warrington. Could get a sponsor/Trophy (wouldn't a be a massive one), but something else to build on.

Got to do something. I note Saracens first 3 tries today were scored by 3 former pupils of John Fisher. In a better world they'd have just finished playing for us and be currently preparing for internationals. I can't blame them for going though, we've just enjoyed the most national press coverage we've had for years and it was only because someone lost a testicle

Will you stop flogging this dead horse or must we wait for a season when Wigan don’t finish top to bring up this topic again? WIGAN ARE NOT THE CHAMPIONS, I KNOW IT, AND WE ALL KNOW IT. No one can change it now, and we all understand that what people are banging on about are FUTURE CHANGES. The sour grapes theme is getting ever so slightly tedious now and doesn’t make any real contribution to the central debate.

Objectives - increase intensity, grow the player pool, expand the game with a clear goal to WIN at International level.

How - Two tens of Full time SL with 1 up/down between them. Minimum salary caps in each division. 26 fixtures plus 'on the road' game/Magic Weekend. Top 4 play off, w1- 1 v2, winner to final, 3 v 4 winner pays loser W2 to get to final

Finance - existing deal leaves SL2 with £620k per club, ideally if we can get another 1.8m per season, 180k per club, this would ensure a £1m min salary spend, SL1 must be £1.8M min, max for both should be 50% income

Overseas - max 3 per club SL1 and 2 in SL2, own grown - current FT clubs 6, new 6 within 4 years
Future - in 4 years goal to bring in 2 new FT clubs, then 2 more in 3 years time

Benefits - more intense SL1/2, expansion via ambition, relegation will not kill you, more FT players to select from, more opportunity to earn a FT living.

It's just strange we weren't hearing any of this last year (When Wigan had finished 2nd) whilst Wigan were still in the play-offs. As for the central debate, there are those who think it should be the table toppers and those who think it should be the grand final winners and regardless of all this pontificating, I've seen no evidence of anyones view point altering. In which case no one is making a "real contribution".

For the record, however, I feel that surporters of the top teams who want the play-offs reduced from 8 aren't being mindfull of the teams below them. In the past these teams were fighting until the end of the season to avoid relegation. The top 8 now gives them something they can aim at and, after Leeds have won the title from 5th, they could even hope to win the grand final (Regardless of how slim that chance may be.)