Oh I agree that it wouldn't go down well. That's not the point I am making.

What I cannot get my head around is the current fashion for "brutal pre-seasons" or a focus on hitting the ground running in the early games.

If we do that, then continue all season- great.

But last year we looked shot at the end, this year we are already looking tired.

Given the current structure of SL I cannot accept that the best strategy is "go out on day 1, and maintain that intensity up into the final day".

It doesn't happen in any other sport, I can't see how it should/would in RL.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. However the uncomfortable facts are that Leeds gave us a good run for our money in last years CC final, are in the CC final this year having knocked us out and are the current SL champions. If questions are to be asked, perhaps we should start down at the DW? This team has a bit to learn about pressure games. We don't seem to win very often at home with more than 18,000 fans in the ground. Bratfut being the latest example.

Watching Leeds this year reminds me of us under Noble and the way we played, although they seem capable of winning the big games rather than us at the time.

I work with a few Leeds fans and despite the success they have had most do not enjoy the performances for the most part of the season, and they find it immensely frustrating to say the least.

I watch rugby because I enjoy it and it is and trophies are the cherry on top and are great when they come our way but the main part of it for me is the week in week out performance on the field.

Teams can peak 3 maybe 4 times in a year and I would say that we should and will be aiming to peak physically at the start of the year, for the back end of the cup campaign and the play-offs.

The idea that we can only peak once is incorrect.

We lost the Leeds semi because they wanted it more and some of our players came up with plays that you would never see them make again, but credit to Leeds they took advantage and turned us over. I do not think if we had played like we had for 85% of the season Leeds would have turned us over, but they did and that is the excitement of the cup, anything can happen on the day.

I agree with Rogues in relation to their ability to challenge, I think they lack the quality and the coaching but they do have a nack of drawing teams in and if teams are stupid enough to get sucked in by them, they will cause them problems.

Wire are a team that do seem to get sucked in and intimidated and for that reason I would not be shocked though to see a Leeds win even if they are the underdogs.

Then you should be delighted with the way Wigan are playing this season.

I have to say I fundamentally disagree with you. Personally I believe that the whole point of entering a competition is to win it.

"They don't draw pictures on scorecards".

Agree, and I think mental fatigue is also an issue. It is very difficult to maintain top performances from the start right through to the end of the season. Even the great Wigan sides of the late 80s and early 90s bombed in games from time to time. It is a big ask psychologically to be excellent 100% of the time and if things start to go wrong in a game, then the team can suddenly feel under pressure and may not respond well to that pressure, as we saw in the Leeds game.

Last night was no more a training game than the CC Semi where we deservedly (and thanks to our players winning it, not yours losing it and not the referee) knocked your lot out. We lost to Wakefield not because the players or coaching staff don't care, but because Wakefield played a blinder and we didn't play well enough. We lost because we were missing a halfback, a centre and our best second rower and the guys that came in (Stevie Ward excepted) didn't do their jobs well enough, neither did some of the more regular starters. We also got a bit unlucky with some of the calls - apparently Wakefield never knock on, never strip a ball and never pass forward - but that wasn't why we lost. We just weren't good enough on the day.

But are Leeds good enough on most days? Yes. The fact that only two matches of note in the last three seasons haven't involved the Rhino's kind of suggests that you should be looking a bit closer to home as to why you're failing - it's certainly not because Leeds don't try against Wakefield.

This Leeds squad has won SL from 1st, 2nd and 5th, won it playing the best rugby in the competition, and when playing a close second to an electric Saints side. They've won it with a record breaking attack and won it with the meanest defence, and they've won it having been the most consistent side over a season as well as being relatively inconsistent - but you lot talk about this side like they're a bunch of grunters who are fortunate to even earn a living. It all sounds a bit like sour grapes to be honest.

So Leeds, with one Challenge cup win in 30+ years, are the model we should be aspiring to? No thanks.

9 losses in 22 games would suggest otherwise.

have a day off

Wire are a team that do seem to get sucked in and intimidated

I don't think anyone is saying its easy to win it from 5th. But its easier now than in a top 6 playoff. If all results went to the highest placed team then Leeds would have to beat

Catalan away
Saints away
Wire away
Wigan at OT to be champions.

4 top notch teams to win it. Under a top 8 you only play 3 top notch teams with the first of those teams coming off a loss and likely to have been in a bruiser.

No, I'm not saying we should aspire to be like Leeds.

I am saying that they have been playing knockout football pretty well in the last few years, because a side which is on paper poorer than ours are the SL champions and has just knocked us out of the cup.

We need to learn how to perform at our peak in the big matches. If we do then no side in the league, including the Wolfs, will be able to live with a full strength Wigan.

Is it not player power thats Leeds' problem? They can beat anybody on their day but its on the players terms, IMO McDermmot has no say in their results. The Leeds team are uncoachable for a lot of games and the leeds fans can choose not to pay their well earned and stay at home. How can they meet a salary cap if they decide not to play at their best?
If the wires destroy leeds at wembley do you think their fans will attend the remaining home matches? ?

I don't think anyone was saying at any point that 5th is better than 1st or 2nd, or even top four, but I do think at the moment, Brian Mcdermott has weighted up his squad and decided that given the current league placings Leeds have more chance of winning silverware by not going flat out between now and the Challenge cup final and settling for 5th spot to give them the best possible chance of winning one or both competitions.
By the same token, I doubt Tony Smith would be too fussed about whether his team catches Wigan or not. It's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that they will but they could also decide to rest half a team before the challenge cup final if they thought second place was a certainty.
The recurring theme here is that with the current system there just isn't enough incentive to battle away to the end to get as high as place as possible because the rewards of finishing higher in the table don't really justify the effort involved. Under the top 5 system it did in that every league placing had significant advantages over the one below it.

i love to read the wigan fan's perception of all things rl,however some fans can't resist having a pop at the most successful sl side saying that they are finished or have been battered
upto date we have played 2 big games that count this season and have subsequently beaten both Manly and wigan when it mattered
how many big games of those that have mattered have wigan won so far?
as a rhinos fan i fear the wolves more than i do wigan should we meet in the play offs

simple ,1st and 2nd go straight to old trafford.

I think you have put the situation into a nutshell, perfectly. To go all out for every round, with the inevitable back-end fatigue appears to be counter productive. The seemingly best approach is to ramp up to the playoffs, with a relatively fresh, season-long rotated squad.

manly didnt turn up and manly are a poor NRL side this year. You got lucky on every level agaisnt wigan in the semi, THAT wont happen again my rhino friend., to say you aren't scared of ANOTHER Wigan good hiding is a blatant lie.
Wigan beat an all time great side in Brisbane in Australia, you will NEVER do that

I haven't seen much resting up this NRL season.

Because the NRL is that competitive and there isnt much between the teams, its a psychological advantage to keep winning. Look at Melbourne Storm - they have nose dived and dont look likely to win a game in the playoffs, whereas the Souths & Bulldogs look likely to go all the way on the back og solid momentum. But on 't quote me on that,,
Anyway the Ozzie game is the best league in any sport in the world, its a privelage to watch it on dodgy websites.
Also the comementating is also the best in any sport in the world, a total joy and something to aspire to

Manly aren't a poor side this year when they've had everybody fit - they're capable of beating any side in the competition.

My view is that Leeds' regular weekly performances are all down to player power and very little to do with McDermott. There is no way on earth that he would have wanted the start to the season Leeds had last year (he must have been VERY close to getting the chop) or aimed to finish 5th, or overseen a number of absolutely dire performances this year (including an embarrassingly woeful defensive effort against you lot at home). He simply doesn't have the money in the bank to do that. His predecessor - having won the GF 2 years running - got the chop for being smashed at Wembley. There's no way McDermott could survive a similar result this year IMO.

OTOH Leeds' senior players DO have that credit, both with fans and - more importantly - Gary Hetherington. It should surprise nobody that they are perfectly happy to have a coach they can pretty much ignore (hence if Hetherington asks them about McDermott, I'll bet they are full of praise for him). The alternative would be a coach with some authority and clout who could and would drop them after games such as Wigan at home. Far better for them to focus on what they want - the CC and making sure they qualify for the play-offs and wind it up from there.

I suspect a loss at Wembley and poor play-off showing would see McDermott gone before next season, or as soon as Hetherington could sort a decent replacement, because the quality of 'entertainment' offered by Leeds this year has been dreadful at times. Unless they win something - at least the CC - I'd bet Hetherington would have real trouble shifting season tickets for next season without making major changes on the coaching and playing front.

I also think BTW that everybody is overplaying the so-called benefits of finishing 5th or similar. Leeds won it from there last year which is good in the sense that it shows its possible - lets face it, even with a top 5 system only 2/3 teams generally have a dig. It doesn't at all suggest its somehow 'better' to finish 5th than 1st.

As for finishing 5th being the new 1st, I'm waiting until the end of the season to reserve judgement. Lets face it took a good few years for a team outside the top 2 to contest a GF (Bradford 2005 I think) and since then only a couple of GF since have been contested by a team outside the top 2 and I think Leeds were the first team to compete from it from outside the top 3.

I also think a lot of it will also come down to how much Wire want the CC or not compared to Leeds. You only have to look at ourselves and Leeds from last year, winning almost hindered us (yet also if we did win the GF it would have been a major achievement). Also will Wire want the CC or GF more? Either way whoever wins the CC I cant see them winning the GF.

Think this would be fair and to keep other clubs interested a plate final for next 6 below and have it has a double header at Old Trafford?

Leeds - my team - aren't the side they used to be. BUT they have a tremendous will to win, don't panic in big games and tend to prosper against teams determined to reduce errors to a minimum or to dominate them physically. Where we tend to come unstuck is when the opposition play expansively and are prepared to take risks (witness the first 20 mins of last year's CC final or the one where Wire tore us a new one). But that takes confidence and for as long as we keep winning more big games than we lose there'll be a tendency for the opposition to play exactly the sort of game that suits us. But I can see why there's such a debate re how good Leeds actually are because you, wire, saints and probably others have enough talent to beat us these days. But until such time as you do it regularly then we'll carry on writing our name in the record books.

That would be quite fair imo, if 1st wins they are quite clearly best team in the season, if 2nd wins, both teams get silverware and looked at being a great contest for each other over the season.