Well said Jukesy.

The one major difference between then and now is that Lindsay et al had no restraints in place as to how and when they recruited, for example they could cast aside a Mike Ford to sign an Andy Gregory and have several star players in the side without it having an impact on squad depth or quality.

The problem with today is that generally squad sizes are minimal, the ability to go out and sign a star player inevitably means cutbacks elsewhere - also the rules have changed. The Wigan side would have likely won the league at last 10 times on the trot had it come down to the play off system, they were getting "shot at" every week and had to perform most weeks not from 3 games out from the end of the season.

He's a far, far better player than Higham as for a start he's a hooker that can pass and doesn't give away silly pens.



Looking at it against Mo’s first stint at Wigan then we are not even close but compared to his 2nd tenure at Wigan and the fiasco’s like SC breaches, rubbish signings on BIG wages, Milward, letting all our top players leave in the space of two seasons, possible relegation & the state of our finances I’m more than happy that IL has taken us away from this sort of regular turmoil and mess.

Add to that we now have a board of directors & a savvy operator like Hogan running the show mixed in with the basis of a good squad which with a few choice signings will be the strongest over all we’ve had in years again imo we are taking small steps forward.



We have imo as he’s a better hooker than Higham. It’s just he’s not Barrett and the void he’s left is far to large for ANY hooker to fill.



Yes MM will be released. Tommy is 23, young, talented and an international who has shown commitment 2nd to none for the club. These are the type of player we need to be keeping imo and if that means an academy product leaves as a result then is it really so bad? And if you think MM is outplaying Piggy then your sadly, sadly mistaken.



Regardless of finances he gave us stability and should be thanked for it. He’s now run his course and we need the next level again. Like the OP said small steps forward and not stagnating.

Why is he better than Higham? how many games have you been to this season? Does he run from dummy half? does he stay on the pitch as long? is his passing better? show more drive and determination? passion? quicker? I think not. He has had time to settle and there are no fruits.




Any fool can run a steady ship the point is he's had 2 seasons to get a decent squad together and hasn't. His agreements for signings like Mathers, Riddell, Phelps, Smith etc... is shocking. Because they are australian IL wanted to return home from his Mo-esque trip down under with a name and he got whatever was available not people contracted to clubs who were big names. He doesnt want to spend his money (apart form gleeson now)



Mick Hogan is the one of the best things to happen to this club in many a year and for that I commend the club. Do you honestly think with a 'few' good signings we will be right again. On paper Wigan have 'names' not players, many have been here far too long like Fielden to live upto their names, it hasn't happened. If we are going forwards why are we getting worse each year? We did better in our relegation threatened year and results wise have got worse since then, there are stats to back this up (DaveO?). The only way we can make small steps forward is the sacking of Noble.



We dont need a hooker to fill the role of a 6. Nobody can replace Barrett unless we pay top aus$ for the worlds best player, which wont happen.





I'd rather have an academy product with talent than a foreign player with comitment. We know tommy likes the club, Higham did and he showed the commitment but was released to be replaced by a player who is not as good as Higham in every department (apart form goalkicking). The only reason MM wont get above Riddell is because of Riddell, he's foreign, quota and costs a lot so we have to play him. MM will leave the club for first team football and join the ranks of Briscoe, Robinson, Tickle (debatable) and any successful ex-wiganer. Long (even though it was quite difficult breaking into our 95 squad)?

Intersting conversation in the Pub After the Saints game when someone was ranting about sacking Noble straight away!

Because a couple of people (And I wasn't involved so there are others out there with a Patient view) said they wouldn't sack Noble straight away the guy went Ballistic!

He said we should get someone who's a proven track record of winning things, someone who's won SL & Challenge Cups, Someone who has won WCC, someone who has international experience Blah Blah Blah!

He then shut up when someone said "What Like Brian Noble?"

The thing is DaveO, Talk is cheap.

And I believe the actions of IL over the last 18 months although Not perfect have overall been the right ones and he has 80% satisfied my long term goals given the circumstances he found himself in and what he has to work within over the Next 5/10 years.
Anyone who thinks they would get EVERYTHING right or sits back and criticises every decision They themselves think is wrong is living in the land of the Fairies or is You!

AJ

TL was out of contract and a high wage earner (supposedly). Surely this was the ideal opportunity to spend those wages on a better no 7 as was done in the past (Ford/Gregory)? It's not as if the club didn't know when his contract would end so saying "who is available" as if they should only start looking this week is no excuse.

It is also not as if the club has not recruited expensive players in recent times. Fielden, Barrett and Gleeson are (or were in Fielden's case) all top players recruited since 2006.

My view is the club (well any club) needs to bias it's sending toward 6,7, 9 and 13 along with the front row. They lay the platform and the rest of the players (2nd row, and backs) can be less expensive players. You won't win anything with a bunch of average players across the board.

Dave

I wouldn't, I'd rather have the Best player for that position that helps the Team overall to Improve Irrespective of where he is from.

If he's an Academy player and a Wiganner all the Better!

And if we had kept Robinson/Tickle/Briscoe/Wild/Hodgson/Aspinwall what would we have done with Ainscough/S.Tomkins/J.Tomkins/Hansen/Prescott/O'Carroll/MCCollorum/Goulding/Lockers/Hock etc etc???

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but did IL get rid of any of them???
Has he got rid of any local/Youngsters in the last 18 months that were shocking decisions????

Look at the original post, this is not about Noble or Higham it's about the Club as a Whole!

PS

I take it you don't like Piggy then Mickey?
How do you know he's on more money than Mickey Was???

DaveO

Who's saying that TL's Wages under his new contract are anyting like what they were under the old one?????

And Why do his wages have to be the ones that pay for a New SH or SO??

What about Coley's wages not likely to be used next year by Coley?
What about The money freed up from Baileys wages???
What about the money freed up possibly from Carmont/Tim Smith & cameron Phelps???

Etc Etc????


Does every decision made have to be Micro managed/analysed/criticised???

Sometimes decisions have to be made that aren't the perfect ones short term however long term will bear fruit.

I've seen plenty of games this season thank you Marc and i'm more than happy, and i know others are to, that Riddell is a superior player to Higham.

He doesn’t run as much as Higham from DH but then again that’s pretty much all a limited 9 like Higham could do. Having said that I’ve seen him make a few good runs from DH and is deceptively quick for a larger guy so it’s not all doom and gloom

His passing is far superior to that of Higham’s as he can give, short, long and miss pass balls which is something I’ve yet to see Higham do. He reads the game better than Higham and executes plays better and faster.

Are you trying to say MM is our best hooker?

Riddell and Tommy are both better players than MM who has looked nothing but ordinary since his 1st team debut. We are stronger with these two swapping in at 9 rather than MM playing a role there.

exactly what I was thinking.
Rome wasn't built in a day but I reckon we need a new architect to co-ordinate the builders.
Otherwise it will never be built.
Saints have embraced Superleague. We must do the same.
I have to admit that if I'm watching a derby and it starts to rain I think that it will suit Wigan!

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. In case you had not noticed we ARE currently in a position to entice top players. We have signed the likes of Fielden, Barrett and now Gleeson in recent seasons.

My point is we ought to be behaving in the same way now as we did then and contrary to your opinion we ARE in a position to do so. Plenty of people do not consider TL a good enough enough 7 yet we have signed him up again. It's no use saying we will sign another half back and TL will play 9 because that is pure speculation which of course is not allowed is it? I also happen to think it is unlikely to happen based on who is out of contract and what other positions need to be sorted out.



Good grief. I was criticised for speculating that Smith will leave and we will have Riddell and McIllorum at 9, TL and Tomkins in the half back positions and here you are living on fantasy island. TL a stop gap? With a three year contract? He isn't a stop gap at all.



We did not take any steps to go from Clarke and McInnes to Lowe. They were far more successful at this club than Noble has been and were replaced. The fact we had several coaches before them is just not relevant but in any case we had Murphy who was at the time considered another top coach.

Who we had before the decision to replace Clarke and McInnes is another huge irrelevance. It had nothing to do with that decision. In any case Noble is supposed to be a top coach so we are already at the level of employing top coaches so therefore wanting to see a similar replacement exercise as what happened to Clarke and McInnes seems extremely relevant to me.



It didn't take him 6 or 7 years at all. This is just utter nonsense. We had a scrum half, Ford, who was quite good - we appointed a better one, Gregory. We currently had a scrum half who was OK but not the best 7, supposedly on a high wage so what do we do? We give him a new deal when his wages could have gone, IMO, on a better player. We were actually in an unconstrained position to deal here. And as to the salary cap it works both ways i.e. players can't command silly money any more so your implication that I am suggesting we chuck money around as if there was no cap is wide of the mark.

As to the Bosman ruling what on earth are you on about now?



What's my agenda?



Well at least we agree on something.



<sigh> The reason Noble's position got mentioned again is because of the parallels between what happened in 1986 and what I would like to see happen now. You are the one who was harking back to how it was then as if we could learn lessons from it. Well IMO one of the biggest lessons we could learn was what happened with the Clarke/McInnes/Lowe situation.



You seem to want to hang me for expressing the opposite opinion.



How about because the longer he stays the more damage he is doing? I'd have Wane in as caretaker tomorrow if it was up to me.



Don't be so ridiculous.



You are right it is not the only single factor which is why I said it was a starting point. It is however the most significant change that can be made to influence the clubs future in the short term.



What would you suggest we do if that happened? The fact of the matter is Noble has been a failure at Wigan. His only achievement was saving us from relegation. Thank you Brian, time to move on. He has achieved nothing else and without going over them all again there are plenty of other valid criticisms of Noble's time here as coach.

Dave

Good read and very well worded.

Ok DaveO

Even though I can't help but feel that 90% of your dissatisfaction at the club is down to the Non-sacking of Brian Noble I will ask one more question as simply as I can!

Lets get to the Crux of it then!

Do you Believe that as a "Complete Club" (Not just on the field) we are in a better or Worse position looking at the next 5 years considering what the exisiting Chairman has done in his first 12/18 months than we were 3/4 years ago (2005 early 2006) and the prospects then for the following 5 years?

Simple answer required

2005/2006 - ML & DW at the Helm Looking forward at next 4/5 years

or

2009/2010 - IL MH at the helm looking at our prospects for the next 4/5 years

My original Post Or DaveO's Reply????

IL renewed Nobles contract cant have it both ways can you?.....I didnt go off topic I was answering the post before me and replied to his comments. Keep up.

I fail to see what will be done with the wages of other players has to do with an opinion that TL's wages could have been better spent. He was the one out of contract now, not them.

I am sure we will debate what happens to those players and their wages if they leave at the time.

Dave

No reply to the other question then???

That's assuming you feel TL's wages could have been better spent. That's only your opinion. Most of us are more than happy with his re-signing. Therefore why should this be seen as a negative just because you don't agree with it? IL did what he felt best for the club in re-signing a 23 year old, world cup winning player who's dedication to the club cannot be faulted. As I said...most of us agree.

Just skimmed this thread but think i have the crux of it, and basically i agree the club is moving in the right direction, i think the systems IL has placed in the club will serve it well for the future and potential.

For the first time in a long time you can see where thought is being placed onto the next player to step forward when a player leaves the club.

My main issues revelove around BN, and this for me is the only real big poor decision IL has made.

I do not think IL works alone on recruitment there has to be advice and interaction with the coach and i think any coach worth there salt should have fought to get Ainscough a starting shirt for 2009, rather than look to recruit another outside back and not a Prop, but contracts and situations with attracting a good Prop may not have been as simple as 1+1=2.

As i said at the time i think we missed a real trick renewing BN's deal when someone like Brown was on the market, but i am sure as and when BN leaves, the person in my opinion holding the club back the most now, with the right appointment we will quickly become a team capable of challenging for honours due to the infrastructure and policies lead by IL and his actions.

Which one!

Dave

Yes it is. I presume that isn't a problem?



Most people do not see him as 7 and qualify their agreement with his re-signing that he moves to 9. My view is that isn't very likely for the reasons I have given. However that does not mean it should be seen as a negative simply because that is[i my[/i opinion. People can read what I post and make their own minds up as to whether I have a point or not.

Isn't that what this place is about?

Dave

Thank You Jonh!

Despite us disagreeing over the BN issue (And TBH it does look like your right from purely an "On field" perspective although we don't know if Brown or any other coach would/could have done any better??) I think you have looked at the Big Picture!

Again I agree with your statements about recruitment over players and it not being as simple as 1+1 = 2 as you put it but I would add that Maybe, just Maybe that's what IL had to cope with at the point he gave BN an extra 12 months.

The main crux of my post was to draw realistic and reasonable parallels to what happened at the start of our last great Era and the understanding that for 10 years before that and for 3/4/5 years after 1980 we had a Real Dearth of success/talent at the club!

Things arent as bad as some people would like us to believe and every time a wrong decision is made (Which they will) they would love us to believe it's the end of the world!

This one!

Lets get to the Crux of it then!

Do you Believe that as a "Complete Club" (Not just on the field) we are in a better or Worse position looking at the next 5 years considering what the exisiting Chairman has done in his first 12/18 months than we were 3/4 years ago (2005 early 2006) and the prospects then for the following 5 years?

Simple answer required

2005/2006 - ML & DW at the Helm Looking forward at next 4/5 years

or

2009/2010 - IL MH at the helm looking at our prospects for the next 4/5 years

After 1911 posts on here Juke I would have thought you had learned by now i am always right!!!