I think Wigan will be heavy favourites to finish top, especially with the amount of home games they have left. We still have to play them twice plus Warrington twice and Leigh away.

Moreover for the 12th July game, we will still be missing Walmsley, Batchelor, Whitley and Wingfield who would all get into our first choice 17.

I'm presuming that Lomax and Knowles will be back by then.

EDIT- That fixture is causing all sorts of issues. Its my youngest lads leaving party from primary school. Bearing in mind we live in Wigan and his school is in Wigan, the majority of Dads are Wigan fans and mostly ST holders for the ones who like RL. Some have said they are not missing the game so are going and dealing with their wives at a later date



I can't miss his leaving do so my mate is taking my eldest lad for me. The party was organised a long time ago so its just unlucky that its fallen on this fixture.

All fair points. I'd add though that whilst we've got loads of home games left, we tend to be playing better teams in those games than we have at the start of the year.

We have yourselves twice, Catalans away, we have still to play Wire who will be a different proposition to either of the games in the last fortnight. We haven't played Leeds yet, etc.

I'd say if we win on the 12th then we're well and truly in the driving seat for top spot, but should we not then I'd say it's about 50/50.

Walmsley definitely but are you sure all 3 of the others are first 17? Bachelor would probably be (although he hasn't been playing well by all accounts) but then where would you play Whitley? Sironen definitely plays and with a full compliment of players available Mata'utia probably reverts back to 2nd row. Wingfield has Knowles or Bell at loose ahead of him and Walmsley, Paasi, Lees and probably Delaney at prop. Is this not right?

Whitley would definitely be in the 17 (I'd start him on the bench as Sironen and Matautia would be my starting back rowers) Batchelor to be in the 17 too with probably Bell and Mbye as the other two subs.

Yeah to be fair if everyone was fit then Wingfield wouldn't make the first choice 17.

NB- This actually gives me a bit more optimism because if we ever get a fully fit side this season then that's Delaney, Wingfield and Stephens not even making the 17 so more strength in depth than I remembered.

Interesting shout Stu. I'm not sure I'd ever advocate 2 back rowers on the bench myself. I don't think the strength of your full squad has ever been in doubt. I think the doubts are more geared towards you ever getting close to it as there are a number who are towards the back end of their careers and aren't showing any robustness to counter it. There's a possibility that it could fall well for you with so many coming back at the tail end of the season though, provided they come back and get up to speed quickly. Paasi has done well so far given his long lay off but I'm not sure Walmsley, for example, transitions from injury quite so seamlessly. Could be an interesting end to the season this year I feel.

They are interchageable though. Whitley or Batchelor coming on would mean Matuatia may play at prop. Knowles has moved to prop this season when Bell has come on occasionally.

The back end of the season relies on some luck too. If say Wigan lost French and Smith at the same time then that's a massive blow regardless of how well the forwards are playing. Conversely if we lose Welsby I dread to think where we would be with how he has been playing lately, he's been looking like the Welsby of old, scoring and assisting lots again.

I agree about Walmsley, I actually think the new contract we've given him may come back to bite us, he's picking up inuries quite regularly now. Paasi is a huge bonus and the continued development of Delaney. Stephens has been the surprise and may feature more than we first envisaged. Took it to Catlans and showed some great feet for a couple of breaks.

Just my opinion of course but I'm not a big fan of that sort of rotation. It's good to have as an option in case of in game injuries etc. but I don't think it's ideal as a first port of call. Having only one genuine prop and then rotating back rowers to make up the shortfall doesn't strike me as a title winning option. As I say, just my opinion though.

Injuries will undoubtedly play a part which is why I think your returnees only coming back at the business end could count in your favour. They can't get injured from the stands. That said, it equally could count against you in that there's an extra burden on the senior players still there and, of course, players coming back could be offset by different ones getting injured. I genuinely think this is where our advantage lies this season. We've been able to rest and rotate our pack without too much drop off. I know that's no guarantee in itself, but it's a good place to be.

There's no doubt that Wigan are now very strong in the forwards, an area where they had been powder puff for some time. The fact that Walters (someone who I would've loved us to sign) couldn't make the 17 for the Final is indicative of this. They have size, athelticism and some aggression now in defence. Havard, O Neill and Nsemba all still very young too.

Interesting question Stu, following the England Academy squad announcement. Both Wigan and Saints have 5 each. Much is being made of the 'golden generation' at Saints. Is Wigan's actually as strong? I understand Stephens, Vaughn and Sambou aren't included but Eckersley, Douglas and Nsemba more than counter that. What's your take?

I expected Wigan to have a decent number of selections as their Academy has always been strong. I don't know much about them apart from obviously Farrimond and Keith Mason's lad. I do believe though that Nathan Lowe is very highly rated within the club- a classy centre who needs to work on his defence but is a good player.

I expected Dagnall, Whitby and Robertson from Saints but I don't know as much about the other two. It seems like Davies has had a good season and from the tries I see each week, he looks a decent back rower.

Nathan needs a few games in the pack to develop his tackling technique. Having said that you can coach defensive skills not so much attacking flair.

Very true. The description I was given was he is similar to Newlove in style and class. That's obviously a huge shout.

Bennison is their worst player since Jack Owens. Owens was probably better. They are very weak on both edges, something we should be exploiting as much as possible in a few weeks.

Whoooooops

Tbf, Salford are a very good side atm

First side in any sort of form that Saints have played for a while, so it was a game I was interested to watch. Salford are a really good side.

Painfully slow back line, would never wish an injury on any player but god help them if Welsby is ever out for period of time

Salford just done the double on them well deserved.
Thought saints had snatched it but Salford did well.

Please dont say Wigan are slow at moving of a tackle St Helens so slow moving that it reminded me of that speedster Wellens in his pomp.

He absolutely carries them. Great player

Welsby has taken a bit of stick from a small section of Saints fans today and in recent months. A few comments knocking round along the lines of ‘another half ar*ed effort’. A sign of frustration because as pointed out, they’d be snookered without him.

I fully agree. I am surprised that Matautia did not get pinged a few times, a lot of his tackles were late today.

It was more of a grab then he threw Sneyd on the ground as a point of intimidation,that worked for them

It was my youngest lads football presentation yesterday so I was out all afternoon and haven't seen the game. I'm also one of those fans that won't watch it back when we lose, sad I know.

I think more of the fans frustrations are with Wellens and how risk averse he is. It makes it worse when we see our nearest and dearest doing so well and a rookie coach who has never coached before (Head coach I mean) completely transforming the club. Farrimond being given a chance on Friday shows a willingness to try the young lads.

Wellens has not blooded any young lads really, Stephens has only been given a chance due to too many injuries in the forwards, same with Delaney last season.

We have a young lad absolutely killing it in the Academy and Reserves- Robertson scoring 3 basically every week and clearly far too good for that level. Lomax has been out and yet he hasn't even had 20 mins. London away would've been the ideal game. Royle and Davies aren't Saints standard and get about 20 mins game time between them, absolute waste of two subs.

Yesterday didn't surprise me too much. We have been a wet weather team now for a while and in dry conditions against a team that promote the ball so well, we struggle as was proved.

I said a couple of weeks I would be absolutely staggered if Wigan didn't finish top and given we have to play them twice, Warrington twice, Leigh away twice plus HKR and Salford still then we are in a real danger of not finishing in the top two.

Wellens is clearly staying next year yet the club haven't made an annoucement. Not sure when they will pick a time as July is a very tricky month. Cas at home next game should be routine but Wigan away will be very hard obviously, plus Warrington who can be hit and miss but are a team that know how to beat us and have the game plan to do so.

In relation to Welsby I think people are going off the fact that he is now a big earner so more is expected. He has looked back to his best lately but I suppose you have to temper that with the quality of opposition. I think we are lost without him but unfortunately when he doesn't fire then he gets the blame from a small minority. I wonder whether he is starting to regret not going to the NRL.

It's going to be a couple of seaons transition for us I feel as the old guard start to break up and we introduce the new lads. I know we are talking to a few players but a lot depends on whether Matautia stays or goes as to what direction we go in. He has been my Player of the season by a distance but I'd be amazed if he does another year. A NRL club will come in for him for sure.

Welsby might yet end up in the NRL, I believe he has a release clause in his Saints deal. From my viewing yesterday what came as a surprise is that Salford dominated field position for long periods and Saints completion was very poor. Your forwards struggled to make yards which may be a consequence of their size.The commentary team kept advising the viewer that Saints have scored more tries, and conceded less than any other team this season, so all cannot be bad. However, apart from Welsby there does seem a lack of pace in the back line so taking your point Stu, I think there is a need to blood some young lads. Personally, I still think Saints will be a handful come play off time if they can get all their troops fit and firing.

Saints are capable of winning it with a fully fit squad from outside the top 2 IMO.

Without a doubt. They're still the biggest threat to Wigan and quite comfortably IMO when they're fully fit. The thing with Saints is, they're pretty dull to watch in the main, that's not me having a go, I think it's just a fact and their fans I think would agree in all honesty but at their best, they have a style of play that is extremely tough to break down, as we found out on Good Friday and it is ideal for Play Off rugby.

Put Wigan up against any other side in a big game currently and it's at least a 60/40 chance that we win IMO but against Saints, I think it's much closer. A lot will depend on both sides shape up fitness wise come the play offs mind. We have better depth and more trust in the young players we have (which only adds to that depth).