Certainly Paasi's best game of the season. Makinson has been great all year but probably his best in terms of stats. Can't say Roby was any better or worse than his usual standard this or any other year, to maintain the level of performance at his age is phenomenal.

I don't know how you can dress the forward packs up as anything but an enormous mis-match. Some of the stats from the Wigan bench are embarrassing.

Agree to disagree, as you say. On the terraces, Paasi aside, I wasn't worried about you up the middle. That's not usually the case. Out wide was where the threat was.

But the game isn’t just about being able to hang in there tackling on the back foot. The Wigan pack couldn’t take the game to Saints at all after the first ten minutes or so - they were completely ineffectual.

Most of your forwards might as well not be on the pitch when you’re in possession.

Because the 2nd row was ineffectual. I understand your point but if Farrell and Bateman were putting in their usual 100+ metres and carrying an attacking threat then the pack does it's job. Havard aside, there is never big metres from the front row. It's largely a defensive unit and I think they did that job well.

I was very surprised in how big the miss match was

Fair enough If you think Farrell or Bateman (or KPP when playing in the pack) may as well not be on the pitch in attack. I disagree. If by pack you mean front row then you have a more legitimate point. However, despite the awful pass to a Saints player, Havard made the best break of any front rower on the pitch and so far this season (although admittedly not yesterday) Mago has been one of our best attacking options and has created many breaks and tries with his offloads so again I can't fully agree. I'm not saying you weren't better in the forwards...you were.

When Saints fans analyse our forwards lack of ground against them and how poor they are, I think they forgot one vital thing that is actually them not giving their own side enough credit- ‘nobody makes ground through the middle against Saints’. I’m yet to see any pack of forwards have joy against them this season because their defence just smothers any side. Each and every side they’ve played comes out of it with some pretty horrific statistics and full credit to Saints for that.

There’s nothing wrong with our young forwards, with Singleton, Mago etc in pretty much any other game in superleague but they, like the rest of the forward packs in the league can’t get over them. We put maximum effort in yesterday and matched them pretty well for half an hour but then they raised the bar and we faded. It’s a fabulous lesson for Smithies (who I thought played well again), Byrne, Havard etc about just where they’ll need to get to if they want to be in the side that troubles this Saints lot.

They're also missing the point that their forwards do it off the back of a good yardage platform from their backs. They didn't make many yards in that first period when we were more successful at pegging them back in their own end zone. It's easier to make yards from outside your own 20 and the Saints backs got them that platform in the early carries. Ours didn't.

I'm not saying our pack was (or is) as good. It isn't. But neither did they get "rolled" as FTV puts it. We were second best all over the park but the main difference was in the backs.

They’re an excellent ‘team’. I said yesterday coming away from the game that I’ve seen loads of teams over my time watching the sport with a better group of players but I can’t recall seeing any group play as well as a team. The league is such a poor standard outside of Saints and that helps them, of course it does, but I can’t help but praise how well drilled they are. The backs help the forwards, the forwards help the backs and the halves could play in their suits.

Watching it back now though and interestingly enough Brown says differently in commentary. He even makes reference to Saints fitness levels citing Lees as an example of his kick pressure and running as hard at the end of the game as at minute one.

I'm not sure how that contradicts what I'm saying Stu. Is he saying your backs don't set a good platform? Is that what you're saying?

thats the key for me more that anything, we are no where near fit enough and saints have been super fit for years so are now seasoned

they dont need to as their forwards roll on due to their fitness levels, we need the backs to do it to give the forwards a breather

Apologies no, he’s saying that our pack dominated. So whilst he didn’t use the term “rolled” he said there was a big difference which kind of goes against what you were saying.

I mentioned our fitness levels earlier and was derided for doing so (not by you) yet Brown makes the exact same point.

I've acknowledged that there was a difference several times mate. I've also given reasons why I thought this was the case and why I just don't agree it was "rolled".

On the fitness thing; cast your mind back to the Grand Final we played against you. Would you say you were fitter than us that night? Would you say you are significantly fitter than you were then or that, under Peet, our fitness levels have gone backwards?

It easy to look fitter when you're dominant, especially in possession and field position. That doesn't mean you're actually "fitter". I'll have to disagree with Browny if that's what he's suggesting. You can criticise many things about our current team but I don't believe fitness is one of them, soundbites on TV or no.

I’m being pragmatic through gritted teeth if I’m being honest.
I hate loosing to Saints and the string of L’s against them is reaching I suspect the worst in our history so although, I’m happy to see an improvement it is from a deplorable level re the 2021 season.

IL needs to sign some real quality next season. The club are getting fans back on their side and i think the vast majority did not expect a win yesterday but trying hard with small incremental improvements will not be sustainable for the majority I suspect if next season there are no major signings.

In Peet I think we have a coach who wants to play rugby and from a personal point of view in the short/medium term I can accept and wait for the right squad to be developed.

I think thats the issue, we cant as the dossers this year werent signed on 1 year contracts so the likes of Thornley and Miski will be here next year, one of them is even taking up a quota spot

Tommy, Hardaker and I suspect French will exiting at the end of the season.
From memory Powell and Shorrocks I think are also out of contract. I’m sure there will be others too.

I acknowledge within a salary cap things can’t be turned around in a season but will probably need at least 2 or 3 years.
We are going to need patience, good fortune and some decent signings to get us to the next level.

Yes I think we are much fitter now. That GF was Woolf’s first season, one that was decimated by Covid. Our pack was different with the likes of Graham and Taia at the end of their careers. This is now Woolfs 3rd season and our linespeed and intensity in defence is much improved, even last year was an improvement on 2020. Knowles is now coming into his own, Lees flies out the line etc and puts tremendous pressure on attackers, so from a fitness point of view yes I think we are significantly fitter.

When you look at the body shapes of the two teams, I just think we look more athletic, carrying less body fat etc. I’m obviously not a S & C expert but I’m just giving my opinion.

Apart from Hurrell of course!

In case anyone is feeling very depressed about how good Saints are their dominance is likely to come to an end next couple of years.

Woolf no doubt be an option for an NRL top job (I wouldn’t recommend going to West’s though)

Roby will finish soon (looks like he could play forever though)

Walmsley, Lomax both 32 this year, Makinson 31.

Lees is an NRL target and word is that Dodd fancies it at some point too.

Grace is a union target.

With success comes the longing for new challenges.

No doubt these players will be replaced with quality signings and academy prospects though.

I must say I’d hope Saints can keep their players together and Wigan just get up to their level rather than wait for them all to leave haha!

A great benchmark team is good for the competition. Would have loved to seen Saints play Penrith in the WCC this year but wasn’t to be.

Wigan have very high standards and I get that if we’re not the best we aren’t good enough but this is year 1 of Peet.

Last year we could barely score a try even against the bottom teams.

Now this year the style of play is much improved, connection with the fans improved massively.

Yes we are comfortably behind Catalans and Saints but we’re moving in the right direction.

If it was us in this position with guys like Welsby, Dodd, Lees, Knowles etc there is no doubt we’d be ripped apart but they do a good job of keeping their squad together. What they will have is a number of players looking for whopping increases. Going off the quality of them against their Superleague peers, there’s cases for 7 or 8 asking for marquee deals and obviously they can’t all get them. It’ll take some creative accounting to keep them relatively in tact. If we’re paying the same for our squad as there’s currently, we’ve got players being grossly overpaid and they’ve got guys being underpaid.

I think it’s an interesting phase for Saints next year.

Firstly losing Roby can’t be underestimated. His performance on the pitch has been great so far this year (probably the best hooker in England so far), but it’s his influence off the pitch where it’s really going to matter. A lot has been mentioned about Saints “culture” since the game yesterday but so much of it stems from the standards he sets every day. If Lomax/ Makinson/ Walmsley pick that standard up and continue, then that will really go a long way to continuing the success we have had recently.

On the pitch, you would expect Lussick will be a direct replacement for Roby after a year of education, with either Smith returning or Pemberton stepping up into the team. Amor and Hurrell are likely simple internal replacements in Norman and Simm (assuming they stay) which then frees up money to either keep Grace/ Lees/ LMS or find upgrades for them (assuming we trigger Mata’utia and Paasi’s 1 year options). Two props in one recruitment season is a tall order but it might be made easier by a certain ex-Saints prop deciding the NRL is overrated and comes back for a mere 75k on the cap

Johnstone to replace Grace wouldn’t be bad either

It speaks volumes you concentrate on saints negatives rather than Wigan’s positives. Saints will be fine. They are the biggest club In SL with the best academy.

Bar the biggest club, with best academy bit, which we know isn’t true, I agree. We can no way just sit here pinning our hopes on Saints imploding. Where there is a will, there is a way when it comes to keeping a squad together and Saints will find a way IMO. There will be the odd exit they’d like to avoid, Roby will retire and Woolf will probably go but we don’t want to sit waiting for another 5 years for Saints to start showing cracks.

We need to sit here in a couple of years and thank Saints for dragging our standard up. We’re not Salford, Wakey, Cas etc and we don’t ever want to compete by other teams standards falling. The actual best academy in the UK will always ensure we’re there or thereabouts but we need to work out how we supplement that adequately to close the gap of our own accord.

Another good win for Saints today missing just the 5 players