If lost those many players for a few games (like Wigan in the past) you would lose more games than win

Stu, put the fishing rod away, you're far better than that.

I thought the

would have been the give away that it was tongue in cheek.

Eh?

I said Wigan have "more" average players than Saints. I did not say all your players were average and I certainly didn't say Field was (indeed I said you would struggle to score points without him at the moment and he is electric against lazy defenders but that I'd like to see him more against the league's big boys before making my mind up). Do you disagree? If so, say so rather than pretending I said Wigan players are average and Saints players world class.

The only time I mentioned "world class" was regarding Walmsley. Alex Walmsley IS world class. Wigan do not have any world class players. Bateman had a claim at one pont but there has been nothing world class about him since he returned to Wigan. Again, feel free to disagree if you like with what I ACTUALLY said. FWIW I think AW is the only genuinely world class player across the two squads, with Roby/Knowles the best of the rest.

If I said the words Christmas and Tuesday in a post it wouldn't mean I was saying every day is either Christmas or Tuesday, so I don't really know what you're on about in trying to pretend I said all players are average or world class. Feels a bit diversionary to me so I ignored it.

It’ll all go back to what is ‘World Class’ this but I’d be tempted to say if Walmsley is then Bateman absolutely is. One is battering an average superleague and the other proved his class in the best league (by an absolute mile) in the world. One is yet to prove anything on the international stage and the other has played a big part for England over a number of seasons. They’re the only two that come in to the conversation though, I’ll give you that (Knowles could take that next step soon and maybe prove it in the World Cup).

In terms of what is world class, I’d say it’s one of the best 5-10 players in their position in the world. If it’s a position there is only one of, like fullback, hooker or loose forward, I’d say you need be top 5 but if it’s a position were there are two of them starting the game, such as centre, prop or second row, I’d push it to top 10. That is absolutely my own personal opinion though and everyone will see what ‘World Class’ is differently.

On that basis Walmsley and Bateman have a case but I’d probably find it easier to put a case forward for Bateman, due to him throwing the superleague comfort blanket off and testing himself where he could prove it. I think Walmsley would go pretty well in the NRL but it wouldn’t be a walk in the park for him. His size and rep here would put a huge target on him. The World Cup is huge for his reputation on a wider scale IMO.

The Canberra Bateman was most definitley world class. Has he performed at the same level since his return? Nowhere near IMO. Whether his shoulder injury is more of a problem or not, who knows but he has been nothing like the same player. Farrell has been way more consistent. Being completely honest I'm not too fussed if he plays against us or not anymore and I definitely wouldn't have said that a couple of years ago.

Now that I've said this, he'll rip it up on Good Friday!!

But this is exactly what I said - Bateman showed it at one point but hasn't been remotely world class since his return - by the way he plays in the same average superleague that AW does, just without looking world class. Which willl probably be pinned on the players around him, before the next post says Saints are useless without AW

Bateman has played at a world class level, I've seen him improve somewhat lately but he's still nowhere near the player he was when he previously at Wigan.

It's fair to compare him against his old Wigan performances but I'm not so sure we can compare against his Canberra appearances (yes he played against a higher level of opposition but he did have better class of teammates around him as well).

If he can get back to anywhere he was prior to leaving us I'd be happy.

Anyway back to my original point, if refs clampdown on moving off the mark (yes AW I'm looking at you), something in his game that's even been mentioned on RedVee, what do you think the effect will be on Saints ?
Just telling him to move back and play the ball slows your attack down considerably (happened in the Wigan/Salford game last week).

I think if this happened AW will carry on carrying for well over 100m every game, busting tackles, winning collisions and being the best prop in the league and we would be just fine

No doubt he'd still be the best prop in the league but I reckon not being able to take the markers out of the game will definitely slow your attack down and let's face it, it is pretty one dimensional, batter up the middle, put on "the move" and if the batter up the middle gets slowed down then "the move" becomes much easier to defend

I think the Bateman demise has been exaggerated to a degree. He’s having a good season so far and he’s certainly a guy I see as a big game player, so hopefully he’ll have some of those to play in. I’ll be honest though, I think there was maybe a view from him last year that superleague was a step down (and it is) and just a general come down after having to be at his very best week in, week out for the previous two years (it’s not easy playing in an appalling team also and that’s what we were). I think a fire is building in him again but like it or not, you are only as good as those around you and he needs them to perform, just like they need him.

Bateman has cash in the bank in regards to being World class but it doesn’t last for ever. Walmsley himself and the whole Saints team seem to be able to find motivation to win every collision in (most) games, let alone the game as a whole, so fair play for that and Walmsley is pushing himself and playing at the absolute top of his game. I do think he’s World Class but the NRL isn’t easy and people will always be convinced by either a) him doing it in the NRL or b) Him doing it on the international stage. You look at Thompson and he seems to be slowly regressing in to a run of the mill NRL prop forward and I thought his form before he went there was ‘World Class’ as well.

I pray Walmsley shows us how World Class he is in the World Cup. We’re going to need him to do that to stand a chance of winning it.

There is a slight obsession on here with "the move" and Saints (which understandably comes from trying to draw parallels between our current success and the fact that Wigan fans said their own team was boring to watch the last time they had a succesful side that defended with intesity).

I think what is meant by "the move" is a sweeping move ending with a cut-out pass to a winger? If so, I think we've scored about 140 points in our last 4 games and maybe scored a try like this about 4 or 5 times?

The winger passing the ball back inside still counts as "the move"

Sometimes you just need to believe the evidence of your own eyes. It is patently obvious how good AW is as a prop. He's chosen not to play in the NRL but it's not for lack of offers - I doubt it is an exeggeration to say that every single NRL club would have wanted to sign him had he been available in recent years.

He and Thompson played together and Thompson is clearly a good prop, but he's never been a walking one man pack in the way that AW can be and has been. AW lost Thompson and then James Graham alongside him and if anything just got better and better.

And I quote:

"3) that Wigan have more average players so losing them probably makes less difference to them than saints losing world class players like Walmsley"

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the implication there is anything other than Wigan have average players and Saints have World class?

If you'd said "a world class player like Walmsley" then you could claim the above. You said "world class players". Plural. Capeesh?

On Wigan you insinuate that losing players wouldn't impact as they are average. If you'd said "Wigan losing some of their lesser players wouldn't impact as much as losing their best ones" then you'd have been right. It would have also been stating the obvious.

I've accused you of being disingenuous several times now and you continue to prove me right whilst protesting your innocence. Utterly ridiculous!

So let's be honest here for a change, shall we? We both know exactly what you meant.

I think you might be under valuing Thompson’s performances a little tbh. I thought he was absolutely outstanding for those couple of seasons before his exit.

My eyes tell me Walmsley is a brilliant superleague player and I’m agreeing, I think he’s world class but until there’s concrete proof there, I can’t be sure he’d nail the NRL or that he will dismantle the Aussies, Kiwis, Tongans etc in the World Cup. He’s certainly not done that in the past for England but his game has improved since then.

The packs in superleague are chalk and cheese with the NRL and as a poster who has criticised the likes of Wigan, with Brad Singleton and there overrated, under sized forwards, I’m sure you’d agree the test he’s getting here isn’t always the greatest.

James Roby would be a good comparison as a guy who also hasn’t tested himself down under but we will all absolutely agree he was at one point as World Class as they come. The difference? A few things really. Some fabulous GB/England performances, the same with the WCC and he also terrorised a superleague twice as strong as the one Walmsley is chewing up.

I'm starting to question whether you just want to read something into this or whether you are struggling with the words themselves.

Clue - focus on the world "more" in what I said. It's a relative term. It means that Saints have some average players but Wigan have more. If you disagree with that then fair enough, I'd be surprised if you did though. You don't need to try to look for my implication, it's literally there in black and white mate.

I agree, and AW is walking all over them in the way you would expect a world class prop to.



Roby was clearly a world class hooker in his prime and I didn't need to see him in a WCC game or England shirt to know it - again, evidence of your own eyes regarding his relative superiority was sufficient - perfect distribution, great decision making, plays 80 minutes and mises about one tackle a year. In the same way AW is clearly a world class prop (IMO) - the Saints v Roosters WCC game in 2020 is a good one to look at if you need to - immense and he's been at that level for a few years now - but really it's not necessary because it's just so obvious.

Sorry mate, but no. Your implication is clear. Otherwise you would have compared Saints losing Walmsley to Wigan losing Field. That would have been a debate worth having

Look, I've said it before that I think you are a good poster and, along with Stu and YG (as long as he hasn't spent the morning on RedVee before coming on) your contributions add to this board. I know it isn't easy being the lone dissenting voices so I, and I know others, value that you post. It makes for more varied and interesting discussions. The Barba one was the best I've had on these boards in years. It just needed a nice pub and a few pints!




Just own what you say and stop trying to pretend you meant something else. If you feel Saints are world class and Wigan are garbage that's fine. Gives us something to argue about. I know that's not what you said before you correct me. I'm just making a point.

I'll go with all that but I'll ask you one more question when it comes to the difference in 'World Class' performances playing in Superleague and how they may or may not translate to the NRL or International rugby.

We know Roby could do it anywhere, so what's your thoughts on Sam Tomkins?

Now if we're looking for a guy who terrorised super league defences, here is your man. The guy was unstoppable for about 4 seasons between 2010-2013. Now consider he was doing that to far better teams than Walmsley is facing (a hugely strong Leeds team, a strong Saints team, a Wire team light years in front of where they are now etc) and he then went to the NRL. I thought he did pretty well and again the supposed struggles were exaggerated but I presume with Tomkins, you trusted you eyes before he went and said he was World Class and you didn't need any absolute evidence to the contrary?

And I'll add again 'I think Walmsley is World Class' but you're quick to say he is but Bateman isn't. It's a funny old game.

I personally think Walmsley is world class but I don't believe it can be claimed yet. There's a difference between "thinking" and "being". Being needs proof and we simply don't have that yet. I hope the proof comes in the world cup though.

I LITERALLY did do that! I said "It’s all very well talking about taking Walmsley out of saints but on this seasons evidence you’d struggle to score a point without field and against Catalans you didn’t with him (in a game everyone on here was saying was an acid test and payback for last year)." You just skimmed over it because you seem more obsessed with creating some sort of implication behind what I said rather than just reading it.



Every conversation benefits from a nice pub and a few pints





I meant what I said and willl say it again - Wigan have MORE average players than Saints and therefore when you take half a dozen of the best players out of each you are less impacted because after one or two you are into players who aren't as good as the ones you take out of Saints. It's that simple.

I didn't say Field was average (I clearly referenced him as a threat and included him in the "best" players I took out of the Wigan team when making comparisons. I didn't say all Wigan's players were average. I DID say Wigan have MORE average players than Saints (which they do). I didn't say all Saints players were world class. I DID say Alex Walmsley was World Class (which he is).

I really don't see the controversy.

Basically and to sum it up - you're a Saints fan and as such some people have a blind spot and don't listen to what you're saying. It's the same argument from a season or so back when Singleton was lauded as the next Jamie Peacock by our fans.

We/Wigan do have more average players than Saints. It's ok to admit that.

MY thoughts are that Tomkins was world class with the ball and as a broken field runner and before injuries took a toll on his pace he was an incredible player - and definitely world class. I don't think he struggled that much in the NRL actually, he had some brilliant games where he looked every bit a world class player, but he did get impacted by injury (which is bad luck) and sometimes defence (which was always there to a degree - his defence was certainly never in the world class bracket but then there have been lots of players like that, like prime NRL Ben Barba who was also clearly world class).



I'm starting to think I'm speaking Chinese! I diidn't say this, I was very clear in making the sdistinction that my view is that Bateman hasn't been world class SINCE RETURNING TO WIGAN. And he hasn't! Do you disagree?

I also do think AW is further ahead in terms of comparison to his peers than Bateman was to his before leaving Wigan - and I thought Bateman was absolutely superb before and during his Canberra stint and he was certainly world class at Canberra where I think he hit a new level. It's just that he hasn't been anywhere near that since coming back.