Please tell me what exactly your going on about Cruncher? More to the point tell me why your even replying to my earlier post when it was offering proof to somebody else that Noble does drop players. Do you not agree he does drop players?

Your going on about the same old performance thing again and league standings etc. etc. when im just trying to put a stop to all this nonsense that he wont drop players not play youngsters etc.etc.

Wether you think the overall performance thing is acceptable or not is up to you as that is your opinion but when people post completely incorrect statements such as 'he wont drop players' then that is no longer opinion but a complete non-truth.

I can only assume by the way you jumped in 'head first' (yet again) and tried to hammer me for something i have not done, that your maybe a few buttys short of a picnic

:3riaa5pf

Switching players around isn't dropping them. In fact it is typical Noble over his three years to switch established first team players around rather than bring in a direct replacement position-wise from the reserves. Have you forgotten how Colbon played as a winger, full back, centre and forward in his last season with us?

Mather's got suspended and as a result we had a switch around and IIRC that is when Ainscough made his appearance.

:3riaa5pf

I don't recall that but I do recall him getting dropped after a MoM performance and the following week we looked rubbish without him and lost to HKR. He tried to drop Ainscough and could not due to injuries, Ainscough then went on to score four tries in the game and got dropped right after.

Now if you can't see what has gone here you must be blind because its obvious he has decided to drop these players at the time he did regardless of how they were playing (duty of care being the excuse) BUT he will not drop certain players even if they are playing poorly. He just does not pick or drop on form and this is the big issue surrounding this aspect of his coaching. He has his first 17 and sticks too it slavishly regardless of form.

:3riaa5pf

Where is it written you must go into every game with four props? He dropped Coley for one game and it seemed to work. He had opportunities to drop any of the other props before O'Carroll got injured but didn't.

:3riaa5pf

I think you will find despite our production line we are a bout half way down the pecking order for players being given debuts. Phil Clarke did an auricle on Sky Sports with stats about how many debuts were being given by the clubs and we were nothing special despite the number we produce.



The idea that he has no responsibility for the lack of improvement is also wrong. The buck stops with him. He is the one who sticks with out of form senior players and drops in-form juniors as quick as he can being a good example of his contribution.

Dave

At least you acknowledge the point this time, but you still refuse to deal with it.

I don't feel that his willingness (or not) to drop underperforming players is as big an issue as some do. But for you treat our poor-to-average general performance as if it's just an irrelevant opinion is a bit laughable.

I suspect you've been backed into a corner with this business. You don't actually know why you want to keep Brian Noble, and the business about whether he'll drop players or not is the easiest thing to keep defending him for, as that means you don't have to face up to the various other issues.

Like it or not, Brian Noble will not be leaving Wigan because he won't (or will) drop players. He'll be leaving Wigan because our very average form throughout most of the season is unattractive to fans, unattractive to sponsors, very frustrating to an ambitious chairman and at some point is likely to see us finish outside the play-off positions. We won't go on battling our way into contention from mid-table forever.

It was impossible for us to lose half of our games but if we had lost one more the ratio of losses to wins would be 13:14 which is as near to half as we could get.

And here's me thinking you and the rest were going to get behind the Team and avoid the criticism until the End of the season?

Why are you trying to argue about something ive not mentioned?

Do you have any input into the earlier discussion regarding Noble dropping players or not?

But we didnt lose one more and we didnt lose half of our games so your point is what?

What should we do next year if we only win say 16 and lose 11? Should we sack the new coach just because if we had lost another game his record would be the same as Nobles?

Don't take it personally Cruncher, the pro-Nobleites have also failed to respond to points I and other people have raised - e.g. fitness levels, preparation and how the Cup fits into Noble's alleged end of season strategy. Lots of pretty unpleasant things have been said about those of us who simply dare to question whether Noble is the right man to take the club to the next level....

The reason nobody has responded about preparation or fitness etc. etc. is quite simple.

You nor i have any idea what goes on regarding preparation or fitness your just guessing.

Not as I remember. I've been drawn into it a little since, but have only ever said that his unwillingness to drop players does not worry me much.

I'm trying to explain why I think Noble should be replaced - correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the main jist of this thread. And thus far, none of those who want to keep Noble seem willing or able to respond to any of my concerns - which doesn't convince me that they have a great argument (regardless of whether or not I agree with them about his unwillingness to drop players).

Absolute Rubbish!

Most of us (RHJ Apart) have given up trying to talk sense!

Again, your still making the Massive mistake of trying to make out that nayone who gives Noble an ounce of credit for anything he's done as being a "Noble Lover" or that we want him to get a new 10 year contract!

And if your implying that my comment about you "Half Truths!" was unpleasent then I'm afraid you misconstrued what I meant.
Half truths meant in that there are many statements from Anti Noble fans saying things such as "He won't drop Experienced players for Youngsters!" when Facts & logic tell you he has.
Opinion may be that he should have done it more etc but that is not what is being said by the Anti Noble Brigade.

I'll say it again I reckon 80%+ of the "Pro Noble" Brigade are happy for the club to Move on and employ a New man from next season.

What I and I feel many others are brassed off with is this continual drive to justify him not getting a new contract by the Anti Noble group who try to put a Negative spin on almost everything he has done to justify their stance.

My belief is that Brian Noble has done a Pretty Good job at Wigan and achieved 80% of what I hoped he would do. If he wins us the GF this year then maybe 90% of what I hoped he would.
Now that is my OPINION!

On the other hand a lot of the Anti Noble Brigade seem tot hink he has underachieved, again that is ok, that is their opinion.
But a lot of their justifications they roll out are again in fact opinions, not facts, although they are often put across as Facts.

But end of the day is 3 1/2 year contract is up end of this season, all I wanted and a lot of other Pro Noble people wanted was for him to be left to do that job to the best of his abilities until that contract runs out!

I cannot see at what point he has deserved the Sack over the last 2/3 years which quite a few would have done with a Knee Jerk reaction at certain points and whilst "Hypothetically" this could have improved Short term success on the field (Which seems to be the biggest justification for sacking him part way through a contract!) there is no proof to say it would and it could quite easily have made us worse?

On the other hand the stability that his tenure has brough has, for the 1st time in a long time, meant we have had a medium/long term strategy that we have been able to see through and IMO we are starting to see the benefits of at Every level throughout the club.

Would this have been possible if we had sacked him part way through last year? What happened if the next man didn't improve us, sack him after 12 months? And the Next and the Next!

Oh, we tried that before 99/00/01/02/03/04/05 = Monie/Goodway/Frank/Raper/Gregory but we have to skip this one for obvious reasons/ Millward and where did that get us?

Not very Far IMO!

lets
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And think about this season!

[size=200=redCOME ON WIGAN!!!!!!!!!!!![/size

"guessing"? Yes, I'm just guessing that Feka is overweight. It could be an optical illusion! You're right, I don't know what goes on in training but the results (or lack of them) are plain for all to see!!

BTW, I notice you've side stepped the cup question!

Cruncher

I'm not one for doing polls etc on here (Lists are more my thing!

) but I would bet if there was one and there were the :- options

1/ Noble was terrible did nothing right should have been sacked ages ago he should be strung up for holding back Wigan and has doen nothing positive

2/ Noble was terrible but let him see out his contract and then move on

3/ Noble has done a good job, but its time to move on irrespetive of whether we win GF or not

4/ Noble has been brill and should get a new contract irrespective of whether we win GF or not

NUMBER 3 would win hands down when it comes to those that are labelled as "Pro Noble"!
Whereas the Anti Noble group seem to want to do the 1st option and use a lot of Opinion dressed up as fact to try and justify it.
I just can't see why certain Anti Noble fans (And I don't label you in this as I think you are pretty fair when it comes to Noble) can't or dont want to give Noble just a Hint of credit for anything and want to make a big Shock "Sack Him" statement as we havent won anything.

What is his weight?
What was his weight before he came to the club?
What has he been told by the club/conditioners to do? Maybe they want him that way?
You go on about Inga when he came to Wigan Blah Blah Blah, I bet EVERY member of the current team would hold their own or improve on what those guys were doing early to Mid 90's in comparison.

As for the cup question, I suppose 2 x semi finals in 3 years and losing to the SL champions at the qtr final stage away from home in his other year is Nowhere near as good as the 2 x years previous!

Losing 75-0 to St Helens and that Memorable Performace in losing 16-4 at Salford the year after! I suppose you would be happy to go back to those days?

I suppose we were "Super Fit" then? When week in week out we had almost a full team sat in the treatment room with injuries/pulls etc?

I would day we are a far Fitter team now than we were then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Short Memories some people have, I don't !

I remember 2005 & 2006 and it's like a Big Millstone round my neck that I just can't forget!
Funnily enough a Win on Friday when we go into a Derby in many peoples eyes as favourites for the 1st time in 5/6 years does actually start to make me feel a touch better about life.

Brian Noble has a Big part to play in that and I for one "THANK" him for it!

I still think we should move on but I am at least going to do so by showing some gratitude to an Honourable bloke who IMO has done his best at all times for Wigan.

I don't think many of those arguing that its time to move on think Noble has done a bad job, its just that he isn't the man to take us to the next level.

When reasons for that have been given on this thread there have been some pretty unpleasant personalised attacks on people who dare to criticise BN whether its comments like "idiot" "absolute dross" "stubborn and thick" "utter nonsense" "at least speak the truth rather than making fantasys up" or "half-truths" or allegations that Noble doubters secretly want us to lose....

That's not an opinion by the way, the facts are there in the thread for all to see!

As for the past, no one is arguing that previous coaches weren't given sufficient time. BN has been given plenty of time and it doesn't look like he can take the club any further and there are obvious areas of deficiency within the set-up, team selection etc which could be improved on by a new coaching and backroom team. Its time to bring in someone new.

A fair assessment.

I assure you, I only moved into the 'anti-Noble' camp - I hate that phrase, to be honest - very unwillingly.

I desperately wanted it to work for him, because, having met him a couple of times, he's a pleasant, civilised guy. I also wanted it to work because it would have been great for Wigan to have a settled, British coach. I was a bit concerned by constant stories - some as early as his second season with us - that he was sounding out other clubs for job opportunities, but even then I was content to see how things went. You can't blame people for keeping half an eye on the job market (especially when Whelan is your boss).

I resisted all early calls to get rid. I even argued on here with one or two whose views I'm now seen as supporting. My change of heart has only really come during this last season, in which we haven't seen any improvement from a team that promises so much but thus far has delivered nothing at all. I'll never deny that Nobby was heroic the way he led us back from the brink of relegation. Thanks to him we're now planted firmly away from the drop zone (if such a thing existed any more). But I yearn for us to get back to the top, and I honestly don't think Brian's got what it takes to lift us any higher than this - for all the reasons I've listed in previous posts. There are many areas of weakness in the Wigan team, which, frankly, we just don't seem to be addressing.

I agree - we've reached another semi, and I'm delighted and very excited. If we, by some chance, get to and win the GF, it will be the strangest feeling in the world given that our coach will be on his way. But I do feel the proxmity of the GF is dazzling people's judgement a little bit. We may not make it to the final, and then how will we feel? I suspect quite a few of us - me included - will come down to Earth with a big bump.

IMO, Brian Noble led us back out of the doldrums at a vital time. Unfortunately, I think it's going to be down to someone else - someone who has a more modern approach and, dare I say it, a broader vision on team and tactical issues - to take us the rest of the way. Of course, if we don't appoint such a person, then it's "hey lads, hey" - there will definitely be some serious questions for IL to answer.

Are you seriously saying that the likes of Feka and Riddell are fitter than everyone in the early-mid 90s side? Seriously?

Noble could only switch them as there was no one in the reserves to replace them with at full back, hence Ainscough was brought in on the wing.




We weren't rubbish v HKR and playing Sam T in that game would have been wrong. The last 20 mins of the first half was the roughest, toughest I've seen in years. It was knock ons from both sides due to the torrential rain and poor pitch condition.




Just because I see things differently to you Dave does not mean I'm blind. He dropped Ainscough after the Easter weekend and errors on the touchline in both the Saints and Catalans games. I started a thread on here suggesting Ainscough might be dropped as Noble did the same the previous season when Calderwood dropped a high ball v Catalans from which they scored the winning try. According to friends who went to Celtic Ainscough had a nightmare game there. His time will come as he's the most devastating try scoring winger in the game.



Yes ok go with three props and a front row as light and under powered as ours will get blown away. Send out three props and look at the oppositions team sheet and you'll find they're going with five. Bye bye two points! We did that v Wakey a few years ago. Only 3 props due to injuries and Tony Smith fielded five, a home banker turned into two points for Wakey.







Of course he's achieved improvement. He's taken us from a relegation team to a semi finals team. To take us up another level to a final winning team we need quality signings and everyone including our chairman knows this. As for dropping out of form players, there are other threads discussing whether Noble should drop Joel T or Flanagan as both are not at the top of their game. Neither are but who will he bring in? Mossop and who? Into a play off semi final? The answer is no one after Mossop and he'd start to struggle after 15 mins.

We have the best reserves and youth set up in the game but bringing lads out of the reserves into the first team is a massive jump. The gap is so wide it is doubtful it can be bridged under the current RFL/SL rules. This is why our lads are going out on loan. Mossop and Flanagan have benefited from this and are now gradually getting first team experience.
Any coach knows this and Anderson said whilst at Saints that younger players will give you a good game or two but then their performaces fade. This is the difficulty all coaches have and it's a major problem.
Brian Noble and the Wigan club are no exception.

You were saying earlier in the thread that the players we had at the time were far fitter than anyone else out there. I would agree, AT THAT TIME!

Now without going into the "We were the only FT Team argument!" How do you KNOW that we were Far fitter than the other teams?
What were the reasons we were far fitter? I.E did we take a massive Jump on all the other clubs at that time? A jump that took teams almost 10 x years to catch up.
We were winning things and hardly anyone else could finance this level of investment etc etc etc.
It was self perpetuating and we took it to the maximum.

HOWEVER

It is without a Shadow of a doubt that "All the Players" and "All the Teams" are now vastly fitter & Superior in tactical awareness and Fitness compared to 15 years ago!

Whether they are "Better" is a different argument and one which, when we discuss the merits of the SC/CC I would gladly aqrgue that all things currently aren't rosy.

HOWEVER

Feka for example is a product of the modern game and the Rules and strategies of that game.
If we could only have 2 x subs & 4 x interchanges he would drastically have to change his game, but it isn't, so there is a roll for him in his current format.
Could he be fitter? Could he be slimmer?
I would ask you, How do you know, the answers to these questions without access to training schedules,results etc?
Or is it Just an OPINION?

You brought Riddell into the argument, I know that he he is not 1 ounce over the playing weight set for him by the club and to what he has been playing within for the last 5 years in the NRL.
Are you telling me the coaches of the 2 x clubs in the NRL don't know what they're doing either?

The game has changed and "Competitiveness" seems to be the buzz word instead of "Excellence".

To manufacture that Competitiveness there are a lit of restrictions and regulations brought on all clubs that mean Quick change isn't possible always.
If we don't get reults immediately some times it is better to be patient and invest in systems & Processes rather than chop & change and look for success purely on a player recruitment basis.

Now you also failed to mention that i put in the sentance "In Comparison".

This is the key, Is Piggy as fit as Nicky Kiss/Martin Dermott was?

Was Kelvin Skerrett fitter than Feka?

I would say they both meet the required standards "Comparitively" for their positions and the situations they find themselves in within the current rules of the game.

But I would also say it helped our players in the the ealry 90's that we were so far ahead of everyone else it often seemed like our players were superhuman!
They were'nt, the club found a way of leaping forward in front of other clubs and the players etc took advantage of that.

Yes there are new ways of training/improving fitnees that "May" help us to take the next step forward.

But I will ask again, show me proof or facts that we are doing something poorly OR that the next man in will definatley have improved effects and will 100% work and I will be prepared to listen.
Because you know what, they may also FAIL.

Other than that, it's opinion, and that's where I disagree with most of the Anti Noble posters.
They pick on his failings, of which there are undoubtably some as with any coach, and then word it that if "XY&Z" happened we would defianatley be in a better state. That may or may not be true, only time will tell, but please don't sour EVERYTHING than BN has done to try & prove a point that he isn't the man to take us forward when it is obvious that he has done Many Good things for this club and his tenure has seen far more positives than Negatives!

You anti Nobleites are !@*&^





Seriously though I had high hopes for BN and Wigan at the start of the season and if IIRC had some great arguments with people who even back then wanted Noble out (I was a pro-Nobleite back then

) but even I after 1/3 of the season had gone by had to concede that Wigan and BN should be heading in different directions.

He's taken us as far as he can and I'm sure many people on here, even us anti-Noble ites must concede the work he's done has been fantastic and he must be commended for it.

This is what is causing alot of the problem, the mindless few who cannot see anything positive in anything Noble has done.

That's an extremely lengthy reply but I'm not sure you've answered the question.

Are you saying that every member of the current side is fitter than every member of say the team that beat Brisbane on their own ground to win the WCC?

If you are - and frankly that would be an astonishing statement - then I'm sure anyone reading this thread will be able to draw the appropriate conclusion about your argument.

If you are saying that it is only my opinion that Feka is overweight the question is whether or not you share that opinion. I would have thought that given the obvious nature of his excess weight it would not be a controversial opinion but would be an accepted conclusion to draw from the evidence.

If you do share this opinion then it begs the question as to how Feka can be fitter than every member of the mid-90s Wigan side, none of whom were carrying excess baggage from what I remember, but were all very fit full-time professional RL players.

If you don't think he is overweight then please say so and again anyone reading this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions.

Yet another insult, but just who are the mindless few you are talking about?

Have any "Noble doubters" said he has done nothing positive? The consensus on this side of the argument is that Noble has done a good job but with some shortcomings and that all things considered he isn't the right man to take the club to the next level. No-one as far as I am aware has said he's a rubbish coach who has not done anything positive for the club. That would be "mindless" but no-one is saying that! It is wrong to paint the Noble doubters as saying this kind of rubbish; it seems to me that this allegation is just a way of trying to avoid having to address the serious points about preparation, conditioning, pre-season work, team selection and consistency throughout the season that Noble doubters are making.

And I asked you a few questions which you didn't seem to want to answer.

Do I think feka is Over weight?
Overweight as a person?
Overweight for a Winger?
Overweight for a 70 min prop?
Overweight for a 35/40 min a game impact Prop?

If it's the last then I would say this, I, JUST LIKE YOU, don't know what is weight is, whether being a stone slimmer or a stone heavier would improve him or make him worse OR if in fact he is playing on or around his optimum weight for the job he does!
But I'll tell you this, I wouldn't swap him for any other Prop in this country who does a similar job.

Do you have any facts to shed on this????

PS

For the 3rd time I will say it again. The players we have at the club are comparitively (Position for position) as fit if not fitter than the early to mid 90's!

However the standards of the the other players both in this country & in the NRL are also vastly superior to what they were until we have a stalemate now where NO CLUB as unfit players nd the gap in fitness between the winners and Mid table teams you could bet is miniscule "In Comparison" to the Gap between Wigan & the rest in the late 80's early/mid 90's.

99% of all players in SL now are comaparable to the players of the early to mid 90's.

It doesn't make them as good as them but I would like a nice wager that if you took strength/speed/endurance etc tests on today's players at ANY CLUB they would comapre favourably to those of 15/20 years ago!

Might be a good question to ask jonh?