There’s also different grades/types of tears.

He can’t rein it in, he was a bully at school and he thinks he can continue in his rugby league career. The only way to solve it is to put him on his back, which is interestingly what happened at school.

I may have missed that but am sure it left his hand,but I agree to the rest of your comment,fantastic player very petulant could he be ratboy part 2.

That was a cracking game and the two sides played at a Grand Final style intensity. If Saints brought that first 20 minutes to any team apart from us or maybe Catalans the game would have been over already. We also showed tremendous character to score again after going a man down. I had no problems with the red card as such, though if it had been a sin bin that would have been fine too, but I agree with other posters that it shows very clearly the disparity between televised and non-televised games, which is something we need to fix. There is no doubt in my mind that we saw the best two sides in the competition and, while I still think Saints are the top side and favourites to win the Grand Final, the gap is not that huge. Paasi is a wrecking ball and really hard to deal with. I think he has been Saints' best forward across the derby matches, regardless of whether Walmsley has played or not.
For me, anyone still saying Field is just a speed merchant is clearly in denial of reality. Saints watched him really closely and he still came up with two terrific try assists - the pass out to French for the first try was superb. Similarly, I think Welsby once again put to bed any notion that he is overrated. He was so influential at the end of the game, plus he hits like a truck in defence.
I am really looking forward to the next derby, which is not something I would have been saying last season! Just need French to sign on for next season and I will be ecstatic.

Paasi has been a huge difference between the sides for sure. I thought Mago had his best Derby so far but we still need more and we are still short in that battle around the middle. Singleton is having a really good season but against Saints rushing defence he’s too slow to make ground. Mago looks too laid back as well and then that left Byrne and Havard trying to get us on the front foot. Havard did a great job but I thought we missed Ellis. Add him and Mike Cooper (next season) and suddenly it’s a lot stronger.

That then leaves me with 2 positions we need more from. One area is the centres. We need to place more value on it. It must be the area we’re spending the least on, with Bibby and Thornley unlikely to be high earners and then we’re throwing in second rowers. Isa did ok but I watch somebody like Wardle yesterday for Wire and it’s just chalk and cheese. Isa is just not a centre and whilst KPP isn’t either, he’s far better in there.

The last position is hooker. I like Sam Powell, I get that he’s a leader and a big influence about the place and I’m absolutely fine with him being our starting hooker but we need a point of difference to bring from the bench. It’s too easy for Saints to get up on our props or whoever else is trying to make ground because they know Powell won’t run the ball. I’d have played Cust from the bench (looked to backfire throwing him in to this one for 80 mins given how shattered he looked trying to get to Batchelor for the match winner) but Brad O’Neill has shown he can take the ball to the line as well.

We’ve closed the gap but there still a fair gap there IMO and we have some glaringly obvious areas we can improve in.

I thought Welsby/Lomax was quite a complimentary pairing. England maybe?

Monday morning might be a bit early to say this but I suspect that, given Catalans losing, that loss on Saturday, might do us more good than harm. The biggest area we need to tidy up is discipline and, in particular, unforced errors.

We almost won that despite being down to 12 men and coughing up way too much ball and the 'almost' is the important word. We showed that we have enough to win those games but you don't get second chances in knockout football. Too much lost possession and the sending off was the difference. Lesson learned? I certainly hope so.

It’s the same guys making these daft errors in our 20/30m zone. I’m looking at Marshall, Smith and Bateman and all 3 need to fix it up quickly. You can forgive forced errors in contact but it’s been clean drop after clean drop or in Batemans case stupid offloads (very little has been said about LMS touching that offload forward mind).

Saturday was a perfect illustration of how you can play against Saints, even under immense pressure. You have to be patient and brave and don’t lose concentration. They don’t score loads of points and they can pin you in your half for long spells. They pray on your mistakes and we’re making far too many. There’s no shame in admitting they’ll probably always dominate us in the middle and in terms of territory but if we clean up the errors, we’ll always be a chance due to the strike we have. They’re big big favourites to make it four titles on the spin but we’ve a chance of stopping them (as have Huddersfield IMO and maybe Catalans). We were no hopers last season, so it’s progress and we just need to keep making more.

After a couple of days to reflect and recover from the trek there and back, I'm not too downhearted about it. I was puzzled at a couple of the selections, Shorrocks starting and not for the first time recently in Partington picking a sub that they seemed reluctant to put on the field. O'Neill there for a bit of a change in pace as the game opens up would have had more value if we are only using a sub for >20 mins. KPP was a massive loss pre-match to the extent I'd say if he plays at least one of the later Sts tries doesn't happen.

The biggest cause of frustration coming off the ground was the Red. Our last try being scored or not, it influenced the result. It was a yellow at best simply because the incident was caused directly by the tackled player already going to ground and rotating without the committed defender having sufficient reaction time.

On the whole, it's just 2 league points and really emphasised 1) regardless of who could have and didn't play for either team, any derby now is there for the taking. Not one of the gloaters who has appeared since would put a ton on the result of the next one. 2) Field has adapted his role. I didn't realise quite how good his assists were until re-watching the highlights. I don't really care if opposition fans point blank refuse to see it but the ongoing development of a creative game adds some real variety to our attacking threat. And after the sheer misery of the Lam years, the joy of watching a sparking attack can override any short term disappointment of a defeat. Onto the next one.

Me and a couple of mates sat over breakfast yesterday talking about the selections and discussed how Peet has got so much right so far but I felt he got a couple wrong on Saturday. I didn’t get Shorrocks starting at all and I also didn’t agree with Cust coming straight back in. It was such an intense game and he was knackered at the end. His defence isn’t great anyway but he looked physically incapable of getting over to Batchelor for the winner. I don’t think he has any issues with his fitness but 6 weeks out clearly hurt him (and us) there. I also can’t agree with Powell seemingly being an 80 minute hooker and us having no option on the bench to mix things up there.

I'd add Isa to that list. The unforced error at the play the ball when we're just looking to control sets was a big reason for the loss. He gets up and plays the ball properly and the Grace try never happens. KPP pulling out had a massive effect on us as did having to replace the very solid Ellis with an all but non-playing Partington. Then down to 12 men for the last quarterish of the game was just too much. Many reasons to be optimistic though

With regards to Saints being dominant in the middle; I think that's being way over emphasised as some marker as to who is best. Sure, we'd like more go forward without doubt but I'm equally sure they'd like to be able to score from anywhere on the field like we can. They play their way, we play ours. Our way won us the semi final and, red card aside, would have won us this one. We're the new Entertainers and that'll do for me

How can you be so sure? We could still have won without the red card, no-one knows. We have beaten teams with 12 men before as I'm sure Wigan have. I was confident that we were turning the screw prior to the red card, we won the arm wrestle and I thought Wigan looked gassed. Clearly the French try out of nothing was superb individual play from Field.

Secondly, whilst I agree that Wigan certainly have more strike and pace, this "Saints only play through the middle" is rubbish. We played a certain way on Saturday due to the players missing. Percival is as good a strike centre as anyone and Makinson is the top try scorer.

I'd go as far to say that before Dodd got injured we were as entertaining as anyone (bar Wigan). Matautia was in superb form on that left edge with Lomax and Percival and we were scoring some great tries.

Field and French will destroy anyone and I fully understand the entertainers tag, I just feel that we are wrongly labelled as a down the middle team, some of which stems from how good our defence is that forces mistakes on other teams and suffocates them. I've read comments from Peet today praising how well we front load our defence.

Fair comment Stu but I disagree. Makinson is a good finisher but he's not a length of the fielder against anyone with pace. Same for Percival. Grace is really your only player with that kind of pace. More importantly though, you don't set up to play that way unlike ourselves. You play an attritional forward based game which is fair enough as that's where your advantage lies. But 'entertaining' (for all bar Saints fans) it's not. It reminds me of similar criticism Wigan got in the Madge era. Wigan fans found it extremely entertaining but for the most part opposition fans not so much. No amount of us arguing to the contrary would change that opinion as yours won't now.

I can't say for certain we would have won of course. It's just an opinion. Even with the sending off we were a couple of minutes from beating you so (along with the semi win) the point I'm making still holds.

And that's a fair response. I guess its how you describe entertaining. Other than Grace are we likely to score a try from deep inside our own half? Probably not and I fully agree that we haven't got that pace across our 1-7 (although Welsby is surprisingly quick once he gets going)

However if we score from 20m out by the ball going through 6 or 7 players hands and Makinson with a diving finish in the corner, then that for me is still entertaining.

After a couple of seasons of being nowhere near Saints we're competitive again and getting royally entertained along the way.
Will they start as favourites if we meet in the play-offs, certainly, but will they know they've been in a game, definitely, do for me after the last few seasons of drudgery

Ah yeah, encouraging players to voluntarily take shots to the head sounds like a really good idea

Indeed Stu. So is a second rower running a good line a la Faz or a little chip, chase and regather from a clever half back. What I'm saying is they aren't Field/French last try on Saturday entertaining. Those sorts of try even get opposition fans on their feet.

This isn't a knock, or dig at Peet as I can't overstate how happy i am and how good it is to be a Wigan fan at the min. I do however think that they club hasn't been as ruthless as it needs to be with certain players. Personally, I can't believe Nicholson didn't get more time especially when Shorrocks and Partington have both played at 13 - neither, imo, are good enough.

Welsby has shown he’s rapid in the two leagues games against Wigan. He wasn’t far off closing Field down on Good Friday and French couldn’t get to him on Saturday. (Was it him who closed French down in the cup semi as well? Can’t remember although French wasn’t match fit then) It’s a different sort of pace I guess. Maybe a bit Radlinski like, i.e not explosive off the mark but sustained pace over a distance.

It was yeah, he caught French in the semi. He's definitely not quick off the mark but as you say once he gets going he's deceptively fast. He has a strange posture for me and I always think of Alex Ferguson's comments about Henderson and his gait when I see Welsby walking. My 11 year old lad commented on it as welll, its a very strange posture he adopts when he is walking.

Couple of questions for you Wigan fans though...

Where does Tommy L fit into a first choice Wigan team? Can you afford him to take up a bench spot over someone like O Neill who can offer something different against tired defences? Smith has to be one of the first names on the team sheet now, he also seems to rarely miss with his goalkicking and Cust looks a good player fully fit. That's not even taking into account the prospect of Field at 6.

I know TL is a leader and hits like a sledgehammer but where does he fit in now

Secondly where does KPP play in a fully fit team? Centre or back row. Does he replace Thornley or Bibby in a fully fit team or is he a bench option for the back row? Looks like he can comfortably play 80 mins so in some ways would be a waste of minutes if he was on the bench.

He didn't nearly close a not match fit French down on GF. He was losing ground and only a last ditch diving ankle tap saved the day. French did get to him for his try on Saturday over a very short distance and giving Welsby a start. He didn't stop the try but that's a different argument. Welsby is quick but he isn't length of the field quick. Not even close.

Tommy needs to be in the match day 17. We don't win the CC without him. Whether that's off the bench or starting depends on the opposition. KPP in the centres all day for me, simply because that's our weakest position. Neither Isa nor Bibby are centres. I've seen enough of both shooting out of the line to be honest. Enough is enough. Thornley is being underrated. He has been excellent for us, injuries notwithstanding. KPP and Thornley at centre when fully fit.

Welsby is pretty quick but I don’t think he’s as fast as French, Field and Grace and he’s nowhere near their acceleration. Bibby waltzed round him in the cup semi didn’t he and he’s hardly fast? That said I think you’re right, in a 20/30/40m race he’s not the quickest but full pitch probably not that far off. I do think he had the run on Field though in the semi and Field had run further plus was carrying the ball, i don’t think he’d get close in a straight race.