Between you and Phuzzy I think you’ve nailed it. I’m glad to see there isn’t a meltdown on here or even social media for that matter, though I haven’t checked the bizarre Wigan Warriors Facebook fan group for reasons of maintaining my own sanity.

Lots of improvement to be had, collectively and individually but overall fairly happy with the path we’re on. The next batch of releases/signings are crucial to continuing on that path.

Saints pack is obviously great but made to look even better with how good the early tackle carries from Makinson, Percival and Hurrell are. Very hard to bring down and get quick PTB so the pack is on the front foot.

Miski, French, Bibby couldn’t match them carries.

Agreed. I though Percival was excellent yesterday without getting the plaudits. He’s such a good player with and without the ball.

I haven't seen all your games, of course, so I'll bow to your superior knowledge but has Makinson, Roby and Paasi had better games this season? They've been good but I haven't seen them play better.

We have Ellis, possibly KPP depending on where he plays and Bateman to come back into ours. I also don't think we were "rolled" as you put it. Passi aside, I thought we handled your pack quite well. We are never going to match your yards in the front row as it's not how we play but our back row (where the yards normally do come from) was ineffectual with Isa and a misfiring Farrell. The backs were ultimately the difference. Makinson's 200 plus yards is testament to that.

This was a good trait of Wane's Wigan teams - three quarters all had to work hard out of their own end. Players like Gelling and Davies never got the plaudits for the donkey work they did, even Sarginson used to put up some strong numbers from the work done early in sets.

It sounds like I'm talking after the event and I know there was a weird situation back when Wigan had the four good wingers but Davies is a massive asset for this reason and I would have kept him before the others. I think he will start for England in the World Cup.

Fair enough - agree to disagree on that as I thought there was a gulf between the packs and has been most of the time in recent matches.

Certainly Paasi's best game of the season. Makinson has been great all year but probably his best in terms of stats. Can't say Roby was any better or worse than his usual standard this or any other year, to maintain the level of performance at his age is phenomenal.

I don't know how you can dress the forward packs up as anything but an enormous mis-match. Some of the stats from the Wigan bench are embarrassing.

Agree to disagree, as you say. On the terraces, Paasi aside, I wasn't worried about you up the middle. That's not usually the case. Out wide was where the threat was.

But the game isn’t just about being able to hang in there tackling on the back foot. The Wigan pack couldn’t take the game to Saints at all after the first ten minutes or so - they were completely ineffectual.

Most of your forwards might as well not be on the pitch when you’re in possession.

Because the 2nd row was ineffectual. I understand your point but if Farrell and Bateman were putting in their usual 100+ metres and carrying an attacking threat then the pack does it's job. Havard aside, there is never big metres from the front row. It's largely a defensive unit and I think they did that job well.

I was very surprised in how big the miss match was

Fair enough If you think Farrell or Bateman (or KPP when playing in the pack) may as well not be on the pitch in attack. I disagree. If by pack you mean front row then you have a more legitimate point. However, despite the awful pass to a Saints player, Havard made the best break of any front rower on the pitch and so far this season (although admittedly not yesterday) Mago has been one of our best attacking options and has created many breaks and tries with his offloads so again I can't fully agree. I'm not saying you weren't better in the forwards...you were.

When Saints fans analyse our forwards lack of ground against them and how poor they are, I think they forgot one vital thing that is actually them not giving their own side enough credit- ‘nobody makes ground through the middle against Saints’. I’m yet to see any pack of forwards have joy against them this season because their defence just smothers any side. Each and every side they’ve played comes out of it with some pretty horrific statistics and full credit to Saints for that.

There’s nothing wrong with our young forwards, with Singleton, Mago etc in pretty much any other game in superleague but they, like the rest of the forward packs in the league can’t get over them. We put maximum effort in yesterday and matched them pretty well for half an hour but then they raised the bar and we faded. It’s a fabulous lesson for Smithies (who I thought played well again), Byrne, Havard etc about just where they’ll need to get to if they want to be in the side that troubles this Saints lot.

They're also missing the point that their forwards do it off the back of a good yardage platform from their backs. They didn't make many yards in that first period when we were more successful at pegging them back in their own end zone. It's easier to make yards from outside your own 20 and the Saints backs got them that platform in the early carries. Ours didn't.

I'm not saying our pack was (or is) as good. It isn't. But neither did they get "rolled" as FTV puts it. We were second best all over the park but the main difference was in the backs.

They’re an excellent ‘team’. I said yesterday coming away from the game that I’ve seen loads of teams over my time watching the sport with a better group of players but I can’t recall seeing any group play as well as a team. The league is such a poor standard outside of Saints and that helps them, of course it does, but I can’t help but praise how well drilled they are. The backs help the forwards, the forwards help the backs and the halves could play in their suits.

Watching it back now though and interestingly enough Brown says differently in commentary. He even makes reference to Saints fitness levels citing Lees as an example of his kick pressure and running as hard at the end of the game as at minute one.

I'm not sure how that contradicts what I'm saying Stu. Is he saying your backs don't set a good platform? Is that what you're saying?

thats the key for me more that anything, we are no where near fit enough and saints have been super fit for years so are now seasoned

they dont need to as their forwards roll on due to their fitness levels, we need the backs to do it to give the forwards a breather

Apologies no, he’s saying that our pack dominated. So whilst he didn’t use the term “rolled” he said there was a big difference which kind of goes against what you were saying.

I mentioned our fitness levels earlier and was derided for doing so (not by you) yet Brown makes the exact same point.

I've acknowledged that there was a difference several times mate. I've also given reasons why I thought this was the case and why I just don't agree it was "rolled".

On the fitness thing; cast your mind back to the Grand Final we played against you. Would you say you were fitter than us that night? Would you say you are significantly fitter than you were then or that, under Peet, our fitness levels have gone backwards?

It easy to look fitter when you're dominant, especially in possession and field position. That doesn't mean you're actually "fitter". I'll have to disagree with Browny if that's what he's suggesting. You can criticise many things about our current team but I don't believe fitness is one of them, soundbites on TV or no.

I’m being pragmatic through gritted teeth if I’m being honest.
I hate loosing to Saints and the string of L’s against them is reaching I suspect the worst in our history so although, I’m happy to see an improvement it is from a deplorable level re the 2021 season.

IL needs to sign some real quality next season. The club are getting fans back on their side and i think the vast majority did not expect a win yesterday but trying hard with small incremental improvements will not be sustainable for the majority I suspect if next season there are no major signings.

In Peet I think we have a coach who wants to play rugby and from a personal point of view in the short/medium term I can accept and wait for the right squad to be developed.

I think thats the issue, we cant as the dossers this year werent signed on 1 year contracts so the likes of Thornley and Miski will be here next year, one of them is even taking up a quota spot

Tommy, Hardaker and I suspect French will exiting at the end of the season.
From memory Powell and Shorrocks I think are also out of contract. I’m sure there will be others too.

I acknowledge within a salary cap things can’t be turned around in a season but will probably need at least 2 or 3 years.
We are going to need patience, good fortune and some decent signings to get us to the next level.

Yes I think we are much fitter now. That GF was Woolf’s first season, one that was decimated by Covid. Our pack was different with the likes of Graham and Taia at the end of their careers. This is now Woolfs 3rd season and our linespeed and intensity in defence is much improved, even last year was an improvement on 2020. Knowles is now coming into his own, Lees flies out the line etc and puts tremendous pressure on attackers, so from a fitness point of view yes I think we are significantly fitter.

When you look at the body shapes of the two teams, I just think we look more athletic, carrying less body fat etc. I’m obviously not a S & C expert but I’m just giving my opinion.

Apart from Hurrell of course!