The thing is with that style we've seen from Saints over the years is that it needs to be done with a certain aggression and intensity. I can just about stomach the repetitive "arm-wrestle" style when it's done at it's best because we absolutely suffocate teams and it's fairly ruthless. However what we saw against Huddersfield was that very one-dimensional style but done at snails pace, which suddenly makes it absolutely awful to watch and not very effective either.

Personally I would always taking winning (when it matters) over a swashbuckling, entertaining style of rugby. However, the minute that our boring style stops leading to us winning the big games, it becomes unforgivable in the eyes of fans.

As entitled as this may sound, as a fan of a club like Saints I expect to either be reaching and more often than not winning the big matches, or I want to go out in a blaze of glory with the team giving us a run for our money and some fantastic rugby to watch. To that end, if Wellens doesn't win the GF this year and he doesn't change our style, he should be looking for a new job by Christmas because he'll have delivered neither of the above for 2 years.

Aye YG, timing wasn't the best in a way but perfect in another. We weren't there at all mentally on Friday, with no intent in anything we did but it was very similar to how I thought Saints played that first half against Huddersfield. It surprised me more with Saints than it did with us tbh because clunky attack or not, Saints desire to defend, with great line speed and aggression is always there and it is what has taken them to the top of the league. Wigan on the other hand have nights like that in them and have done for a while. We had them last season at Magic, the week after at Saints, the home game against Leeds against 12 men and so on. I just thought that first half for Saints was probably the least enthusiastic I've seen a lot of the players in a good few years. I don't think they will but if they turn up like that at HKR but if they did, they won't find a guy like Bibby dropping ball after ball in good positions or a numpty like Connor putting on his one man idiot show. Add in the 5,000 refs in that touchline stand and you can't get away with a 40 minutes like that.

Really stupid but it will depend on which team starts the best. We looked shocking in that first half and we conceded early and it got the crowd up. From there we just couldn’t cope. We lost the ruck and from that the quick PTB they ripped holes in our un-prepared defence. Like you said NK reminder of the Magic fixture and the season opener against them last year. We have it in us to win that game we just weren’t on top and nothing seem to stick on the night. Only saving grace I can see is when we play in CC they’ll not be 100% sure of us as we were poor in this game. Also when did we stop kicking on the last? I think saints could just grind out a win here but I am not confident. That edge with Makinson and hurrell was unbelievably poor, I think I could have beat hurrell at times in that game. Think they’ll target that all night and if Bennison is FB he’ll get peppered with kicks

I think the Bennison experiement at 1 is over. To be hooked off after 20-25 mins or whatever it was shows how it clearly wasn't working and I would be amazed if went back to that.

Welsby will be at 1 and Lomax at 6. Then Dodd or Mbye at 7 depending if Dodd is fit.

I think this, in part, comes back to the 'who has most improvement in them' discussion that we had post Good Friday. As NK says, we have these performances in us. Leeds against 12 men last season being the most glaring example. We completely switched off in that match in a similar way to how we started the KR game and, in both cases, looked like we were miles off any silverware. However, we can also 'switch on' in spectacular fashion as we did following the CCSF loss last year. We then get performances like Catalans away, the subsequent unbeaten run and the WCC.

When we raise our game it's in both attack and defence and I think that's the difference. Saints can raise their game for sure but it's been defensively only for a couple of seasons now. Their attack never really seems to improve by anything significant.

Are both sides likely to be as poor as we were in the first halves of our respective games? The short answer is probably yes. It won't determine where the trophies end up though.

We have that lethargy, carelessness, arrogance or whatever it is in us, where we just don't turn up in games but it very rarely happens in a big game under Matty Peet, so I do think Friday can actually be a massive help when it comes to the cup semi. The players now know that they need to be at the very top of their game to win that game and any risk of us not showing up that day is pretty much gone IMO.

The Saint 71- James Graham disagrees with you about Dodd, it will be interesting to see who is right. https://www.totalrl.com/james-graham-cl ... nrl-links/

The Saint 71- James Graham disagrees with you about Dodd, it will be interesting to see who is right. https://www.totalrl.com/james-graham-cl ... nrl-links/

Could being the operative word there Zig

Be great if Dodd goes and turns the worst team in the league into contenders, the meltdown over the lump would be priceless

Quote ="Zig"The Saint 71- James Graham disagrees with you about Dodd, it will be interesting to see who is right. https://www.totalrl.com/james-graham-cl ... nrl-links/'" Perhaps but Graham has since shot down a journalist who thinks Dodd will not make it, he seems pretty confident.

Quote ="Zig"The Saint 71- James Graham disagrees with you about Dodd, it will be interesting to see who is right. https://www.totalrl.com/james-graham-cl ... nrl-links/'" Perhaps but Graham has since shot down a journalist who thinks Dodd will not make it, he seems pretty confident.

In summary Saints play like a Shaun Wane team from 2014 to 2018. You play “tough” and are very hard to beat.

Every time I hear the Sky team go on about how 'Wigan won't go away' as we're getting beat, I always think that should now be a tag used for Saints. We do go away sometimes and have an off performance. It's not that often but it's a time or two a season. That tag and the old 'entertainers' tag should be flipped pretty much because I don't think either ring that true at the minute for the clubs they've been associated with traditionally by Sky.

I've had a few weeks away from here as sat in Spain logging into my phone to argue with Phuzzy wasn't conducive to a relaxing family break and made me question a few things so I had a few weeks reflection. He's probably a decent bloke if I were to meet him.

However back to the rugby, I fully agree with everything TYG has said. We are awful to watch with a one dimensional attack and Warrington did a proper number on us. Williams ran the show and gave a masterclass in half back play and they went wide early and scorched us for pace.

I still think Wigan will win the comp as they have too many gamechangers and have pace to burn and a better pack than last season. My only surprise is that IMO they have only played two decent sides all season and lost them both and were a Sneyd brainfart away from losing at Salford.

They have had a very nice fixture list so far (even Leigh A was against a Leigh team with lots missing) It will be interesting to see how they go against Catalan and Warrington coming up although you coud argue Wigan will respond well to last week, perhaps Catalan will too who knows.

I actually think that Warrington would give Wigan a really good game if they are on it. They have a lot of pace, some decent forwards and the best 6 in the comp in Williams.

Back to Saints and unless we suddenly change our attack, we won't be winning the GF this season. Defensively we are still outstanding and we will always compete but Lomax is now a shadow of the player he was and for whatever reason Welsby has been very quiet, looking like he doesn't know where he should be at times.

I am going to HKR on Saturday and if we play like we did against Huddersfield and they play like they did against Wigan it will be a long day for me and my eldest lad.

We have a huge rebuilding phase coming up with likely Makinson, Hurrell, Blake and Matautia all leaving at the end of the season, not to mention we have still not replaced Grace.

Add in Dodd. The overseas players can be easily replaced unfortunately there are not many top English players hanging around waiting to be snapped up.

The other problem we have is that we have some outstanding young lads waiting for a chance but are perhaps still not quite ready yet. There is a huge difference physically between Academy and SL and its not like football whereby a 17-18 year old isn't really much different physically to an older player. Its different in RL

There are some big decisions coming up which if we want to continually compete, we need to get right.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Rowley in charge of Saints in 2025 and, if what you say is true about the young lads at Saints, maybe Snyed might do a trainsitional year with him?

Either way, there's a massive shortage of "proven" HB's in both the NRL & SL. Any realistic signing would be someone with baggage, or a hungry player from the reserves comp.

Saints recruitment will be extremely interesting. You'd imagine it'll have to be mainly from overseas because you look around at the market here and it's threadbare. The English guys you feel Saints may be interested in (Davies, Johnstone, McMeekan etc) have rumoured to have signed elsewhere. Even guys here you might hold an interest in are from overseas (Marsters and Amone), so lots of quota spots will be needed or the chequebook will need to be dusted off.

If I was a Saints fan I'd be hoping Eamon would be on the phone to Holbrook and Woolf asking about up and coming halfbacks/fullbacks who need game time, we know more than anyone that gems like Field who would struggle to break first team over there can rip it up over here

I mentioned Daine Laurie for us when French was rumoured to be leaving. He would be a decent option. The lad who made his debut for Newcastle last week was being touted for Leigh (Armstrong) and he looks another lively option from the highlights I've seen. Tristan Sailor is another they were looking at. Adrian Lam might not have worked miracles here but his eye for a player from Down Under is extremely impressive (Field, French, Ipape, Amone, Asiata) and copying his targets might not be the worst approach. Any of those 3 could go in at fullback and allow Welsby to move in to what I think would be his best position at 6.

Vaughan is the only one ready for me

Your lot said that about Murphy and what a star he was. The fans will get behind young lads, Saints need to be bold and drip feed them into first team rugby this season.

thats where its difficult though and what i think Stu was alluding to. Its all well and good bringing 1 or 2 into a side thats playing well and having 15 seasoned pros to look after them v bringing in 6 or 7 (i know different to drip feeding too

)where they are potentially risking their futures due to the physical differences from age 16-18 and not being able to compete physically / getting battered by full time pros

i know sometimes circumstances (injuries) dictate that players are thrown in too early, but i dont think Saints are in that position injury wise that they need to risk wholesale changes this season. They also have a couple of fringe players that it appears Wellens doesnt want to play (Ritson and potentially Bennison). I know Bennison has had games on the wing, but the change last week was quickly reverted by Wellens and he was brought off to put Welsby back at FB.

One of my Saints supporting mates appears to be a real fan of Ritson, posting on FB quite regularly that he should be playing. I'm in the jury out on him as yes he's fast, but i dont think he is a smart rugby player from what i've seen of him, and Wellens probably doesnt trust him to be playing every week. There's no doubt initially it was good piece of business from Saints, getting him on loan but to turn that into a permanent signing IMO was an error or he would be playing every game. He's also not a kid (2icon_cool.gif so should be getting regular 1st team rugby somewhere

I think Saints are being quite clever with putting Ritson on dual reg this season with Swinton. He has played the last two games with Vaughan as his centre so I think its a case of Saints having a look at them both together without the risk of doing it in SL and potentially testing out a partnership.

There's no doubt that Ritson should have perhaps had more opportunities over Bennison but we don't see him every day in training so perhaps there is still a lot of work to do.

I have to say though, to sign someone on a two year deal and never play them is strange. Granted he won't be on a lot of money but still. Unless he does get a chance over the next few weeks.

Vaughan was the England Academy captain last year as well as Lancashire and seems to have a big future ahead of him.

i wasnt aware he was with Vaughan, so as you say probably a good trial outside of the limelight of super league. Like i said initially i thought it was a smart piece of business, but to then offer him a deal but not particularly want to play him seems strange, even more so when he's not a young kid with plenty of opportunity for him to develop

Saints have done it before, Delaney being a good example. I think a couple of lads, such as Vaughan, should have experienced first team rugby this season.