While I’m in the camp of saying Faz has been robbed of a good international career and he would’ve been a fine player in that environment (used properly-80 mins every game and not 15/20 mins here and there, as he only ever got), I do think his time has gone. Guys like KPP, Walters, Batchelor, Nicholson, Nsemba etc are the ones I expect to take it forward, alongside John Bateman over the next few years. A couple are ready now and a couple I expect to get to that level in time.

The England backrow looks in good shape for the future. I think we need a couple of top class front rowers to come through as I don't see too many on the horizon of the same calibre of Graham, Walmsley, Hill and the Burgess family.

The elephant in the room with the English national side is how it will work when the tackle height rule changes next year.

There are loads of young props who could make the step. The issue they have is that they’re not getting the chance to build their reputations in games against Australia or New Zealand, so it’s difficult to know if they’re up to it. If 2 or 3 of those can step up and develop to that top level, I think we look pretty well set. The backline from 1-7 looks as good as I can remember for a long time.

The elephant in the room comment I agree with. Any good work could be undone as we won’t be playing the same sport anymore.

Who are you thinking of? I think there are some young props with some potential but no slam dunks atm for me - most have hurdles to overcome. Havard has been mentioned for a few years now but he'll need to overcome injuries and inconsistency , Oledski the same, Delaney possibly but maybe lacks a bit of size and isn't he more of a backrower?

I agree with you in that none scream out that they could be the next Graham, Sam Burgess etc but without those internationals against Australia and New Zealand, you do struggle to really see who has that bit of something extra in them. I think the issue we’ve had in the last decade is that our best props have gone to Oz and then where guys like Graham and Burgess had people like Peacock and Fielden to go against, the young props here haven’t had Graham, Burgess x3 and so on to test themselves against. Alex Walmsley has been the biggest challenge and I think guys here like Byrne and Havard have improved but it’s too few and far between challenges like that.

I like Havard, Byrne and Dupree here, as well as Harvie Hill (although he’s a couple of years behind). Lees and Delaney at Saints are two more. I’m a big fan of Holroyd at Leeds but injuries are impacting him and Oledzki is much the same. Walters might play at prop and he really looks like somebody who could thrive in international rugby. I just think until they get the chance, we won’t really know how good they could be. I think there is plenty of talent knocking about but not enough opportunity to push them.

As a saints fan it’s impossible to dislike the guy. This was compounded before the WCC when he was an absolute legend with my daughters, posing for photos and genuinely seemed interested in what they had to say. Complete opposite to another big name Wigan player on that day but hey, all teams have them.

When it’s time for him to go I hope he gets the send off he deserves

I didn’t say he did anything better than Farrell, you said that he was non-existent but that is not true.

Not seen the stats but I would guess he made more yards and his contact was very good on the night.

Harry Smith certainly knew he’d been in a game.

I actually think Martin is a bit like the NRL’s version of Farrell maybe not the biggest (but still a decent size) but his work ethic and attitude is where he really excels, does the stuff others don’t like to do, very tough.

Looking at the next generation on second-rows coming through at the moment in the NRL there are some absolute monsters who I think will be looking to challenge for rep shirts including Martins over the next season or 2.

To be honest,they all prob made more yards in that game.

Yep fair comment.

I’ve not seen the stats but I’m guessing if you had to look at them without knowing the result and had to pick a winner not many if any would be picking Wigan.

The defensive effort which Farrell was an integral part of was ridiculous.

Be interesting to see how they back up tonight after such an effort.

The stats say that Farrell made slightly more yards than Martin but two fewer tackles.

I thought Faz would have made more yards but didn't like to say as I couldn't find the official stats. Where have you got them from Zig?

With the territorial advantage and the significant ball advantage the Penrith pack should have absolutely murdered the Wigan pack. Apart from Yeo the Penrith pack was anonymous considering that they had those advantages

Cleary knew that he had been in a game too.
Another occasion on UK soil where Cleary had a mediocre game. He’s obviously a superb talent but he doesn’t travel well.

Farrell: 139 m, Post contact metres 51 m. Tackle busts 0 Tackle efficiency 84% Martin: 126 m, Post-contact metres 53 m, Tackle busts 4, Tackle efficiency 93% Both had fine games, and Yeo was excellent (as he always is, every time i see him play). https://www.nrl.com/draw/world-club-cha ... -panthers/

Farrell: 139 m, Post contact metres 51 m. Tackle busts 0 Tackle efficiency 84% Martin: 126 m, Post-contact metres 53 m, Tackle busts 4, Tackle efficiency 93% Both had fine games, and Yeo was excellent (as he always is, every time i see him play). https://www.nrl.com/draw/world-club-cha ... -panthers/

Quote ="moto748"Farrell: 139 m, Post contact metres 51 m. Tackle busts 0 Tackle efficiency 84% Martin: 126 m, Post-contact metres 53 m, Tackle busts 4, Tackle efficiency 93% Both had fine games, and Yeo was excellent (as he always is, every time i see him play). https://www.nrl.com/draw/world-club-cha ... -panthers/'" Yes Yeo was his usual excellent self. I think he would be a perfect match for us. Highly unlikely that we would ever sign him but his style of play would take us to another level. Farrell I suspect did more running from within his own half than Martin. He’s past his very best these days Farrell but still an excellent consistent player. His consistency verges on the ridiculous at times.

Quote ="moto748"Farrell: 139 m, Post contact metres 51 m. Tackle busts 0 Tackle efficiency 84% Martin: 126 m, Post-contact metres 53 m, Tackle busts 4, Tackle efficiency 93% Both had fine games, and Yeo was excellent (as he always is, every time i see him play). https://www.nrl.com/draw/world-club-cha ... -panthers/'" Yes Yeo was his usual excellent self. I think he would be a perfect match for us. Highly unlikely that we would ever sign him but his style of play would take us to another level. Farrell I suspect did more running from within his own half than Martin. He’s past his very best these days Farrell but still an excellent consistent player. His consistency verges on the ridiculous at times.

The biggest quality of Farrell for me is his consistency. You need players like that who can back it up week in week out year after year if you want to have any chance of success. Faz is that player for us. Rarely injured. Fantastic. He has played with 3 or 4 different half backs and has always been a potent attacking threat with the lines he runs. Superb in defence, disciplined with and without the ball. Brilliant.

I must add I think he is making a fantastic captain. Seems so measured on the pitch (like his general game) when talking to the players. Very calm presence about him. He epitomises Matty Peet really.

We will really miss him whenever he does retire. For me though he doesn't look to be missing a beat and looks like he has a good few years still in him providing he stays injury free.

Very happy with that result and scoreline.
Good to see Thompson do long minutes. Hopefully continues to build his confidence.
I thought O’Neil was once again excellent.
Nice little cameo from Forber.

They did mate that’s why they had territorial advantage, their backs couldn’t deliver. Anyway, back to the point, Martin is a top player that’s why he is in the Australian team and a very successful side. To say otherwise is being dishonest.

Quote ="moto748"Farrell: 139 m, Post contact metres 51 m. Tackle busts 0 Tackle efficiency 84% Martin: 126 m, Post-contact metres 53 m, Tackle busts 4, Tackle efficiency 93% Both had fine games, and Yeo was excellent (as he always is, every time i see him play). https://www.nrl.com/draw/world-club-cha ... -panthers/'" That’s the point I was trying to make, thanks for the stats. It was Itchy’s comments that didn’t align with what happened on the night. Having said that, everyone has a right to their opinion and we all see the game differently.

Quote ="moto748"Farrell: 139 m, Post contact metres 51 m. Tackle busts 0 Tackle efficiency 84% Martin: 126 m, Post-contact metres 53 m, Tackle busts 4, Tackle efficiency 93% Both had fine games, and Yeo was excellent (as he always is, every time i see him play). https://www.nrl.com/draw/world-club-cha ... -panthers/'" That’s the point I was trying to make, thanks for the stats. It was Itchy’s comments that didn’t align with what happened on the night. Having said that, everyone has a right to their opinion and we all see the game differently.

Take away Yeo which other Penrith forward really stood out? I don’t think any did. Martin for me was pretty average along with the vast majority of the Penrith pack. I’m not being dishonest or disrespectful I was genuinely disappointed in the Penrith pack. Farrell’s best days are behind him but he still matched a younger opposition player whose team dominated the possession. To put it into perspective I don’t think Farrell stood out hence why I said I didn’t think the Penrith second row played particularly well because non of the Penrith second rowers stood out.
Obviously Zig it’s all about opinions. I respect your opinion but I don’t need to agree to it. Likewise, if my opinion is the opposite to yours it doesn’t mean I’m being dishonest it just means I viewed the game differently to you.

I stand by my views particularly on Cleary who again failed to deliver on UK soil. Do i think that Cleary is a supreme RL player. Absolutely. On the night though he was mediocre by his own very high standards. This debate started by the statement that Farrell wasn’t/isn’t international standard maybe Cleary could be falling into this category. Do i think that? No I don’t but if he comes over to the UK again and once more fails to live up to his nrl standards then I’d certainly start to question it.

Fisher-Harris and Leota were massively disappointing for me. I was at Elland Road when they were immense against the Aussies and I thought they’d be the difference but both looked more concerned with pushing and shoving. On the other hand, Isiah Yeo was immense and always is. He is a fabulous rugby league player.

A great servant to Wigan & Rugby League & a joy to watch.

Ok mate we disagree, now we move on.

There's no doubt about that.