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| Quote ="Sweaty Betty's"Hull were head and shoulders above Wigan today and I agree, the score line flattered us. However, the biggest difference, in my view, was your line speed when defending, you smothered us to death whereas we allowed easy gains. Good luck in the semi-final.'"
In the past, we had backs who utilised the short kick through to turn the opposition forwards around, and tire them, for example; Edwards and Gregory. Or as Harry Smith did last week, take their line on in the attack, with a short burst of speed to open their defence up. Both Edwards and Gregory were 'masters' at that.
We certainly haven't got any ball playing forwards in the mould of Brian McTigue (I wish) . 'Mac' used to tell his backs, to just follow him and he'd get that ball out to them, and he used to break opposition defences for fun.
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| For me, it was a real tactical miss by Lam. He was so concerned with neutralising their kicking game and playing a territory wet weather game, he forgot about our strengths, and ignored their weaknesses.
The weather wasn’t a monsoon, slight drizzle for part of the match and actually ok for the rest.
We had far the better team on paper and we should have played to that teams strengths and let Hull worry about us. They were without their main talismanic flair player, with a winger filling in at FB and a very inexperienced player taking his wing spot.
We were stronger, faster and more nimble on the edges and when we threw the ball wide we had our only success, but you can’t rely on playing just 5 of the 80.
Add to that very under par, uncharacteristic error strewn performances from Hardaker, French, Byrne and a couple of others.
We let them run time and again from dummy half and letting in a couple of barge over tries is very disappointing,
One crumb of upside was Bateman had his best match since coming back. And I'd like to see Smith kicking for the next few matches as Hardaker isnt that top class goal kicker we need. Maybe we get Botica or Deacon in for a few sessions with him or even Owen Farrell on a zoom call !
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| Quote ="Ruddy Duck"Time that some of you stopped blaming Lam and faced the fact that we have too many young inexperience and inconsistent lightweight forwards and you cannot blame Lam for players knocking on, failing to catch high balls, kicking out on the full and not having a good goalkeeper.
The people to blame are those running the club. When Lenagan first bought the club, he was like a breath of fresh air after the ownership of Whelan but now the squad is not the right blend of experienced top class players and the younger players like it was in previous seasons.
No matter who is the Coach, you cannot make a silk purse out of a as sow's ear and that what now exists at the club and might explain the why Wane threw in the towel and Edwards declined a return to the club.
No doubt the usual handful or so of the 'click' who think Lenagan and Radlinski are never wrong in their judgements will continue to wear the blinkers!'"
We are a top prop away from being the best team in the league imo, if the money for GB was spent wisely and we had say Watts or Thompson, I’d fancy us to beat anyone. Even without a dominant pack leader i think we could still win the GF, we have a great crop of young prop forwards coming through and I’m not sure where as lightweight as people think. Byrne, Havard and Bullock are all big lads, Partington is small but he could easily put a stone or two on in the next few years which would help.
We seem to have this debate running on a constant loop for probably over 10 years and we have managed to win plenty of trophies in that time, also with less subs and the 6 again rule I think it’s more advantageous for the fitter props plus I think in 3/4 years we could have one the best set of props we have had in my lifetime watching Wigan unless the NRL come crawling.
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| Not once did we try an early kick behind Fonua for French to chase. Or exploit their big men around the ruck - Powell was literally anonymous.
We played extremely low percentage rugby even when we were 8 points down. And even that low percentage rugby was coming up with loads of errors - there was just no plan B.
A large issue of course was lack of field position to try those things which again comes back to our powderpuff pack and Hull managing to control the ruck with complete ease.
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| Quote ="CobraCraig"We are a top prop away from being the best team in the league imo,[u if the money for GB was spent wisely [/uand we had say Watts or Thompson, I’d fancy us to beat anyone. Even without a dominant pack leader i think we could still win the GF, we have a great crop of young prop forwards coming through and I’m not sure where as lightweight as people think. Byrne, Havard and Bullock are all big lads, Partington is small but he could easily put a stone or two on in the next few years which would help.
We seem to have this debate running on a constant loop for probably over 10 years and we have managed to win plenty of trophies in that time, also with less subs and the 6 again rule I think it’s more advantageous for the fitter props plus I think in 3/4 years we could have one the best set of props we have had in my lifetime watching Wigan unless the NRL come crawling.'"
it was, on french and hastings
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| Perhaps one of the worst things is Lam's apparent bewilderment at the loss.
Missed goal kicks first half must have knocked the lad's morale.
The weather was poor must the ground under foot couldn't have been that soft.
Lam should have made changes either just before half time or at the break. Not 5-10 mins from the end.
We scored within minutes of French to fb and Smith made it six with an excellent conversion.
The players must be shattered after that loss as it was so avoidable. Lam simply made the same mistakes he made in the semi defeat last year.
Does anyone seriously think we'll win the Challenge Cup with Lam as head coach?
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| I don't think we'll win anything under Lam. Our big game management is non existant. It was poor under Wane at times, but under Lam it's even worse.
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| Quote ="Father Ted"Perhaps one of the worst things is Lam's apparent bewilderment at the loss.
Missed goal kicks first half must have knocked the lad's morale.
The weather was poor must the ground under foot couldn't have been that soft.
Lam should have made changes either just before half time or at the break. Not 5-10 mins from the end.
We scored within minutes of French to fb and Smith made it six with an excellent conversion.
The players must be shattered after that loss as it was so avoidable. Lam simply made the same mistakes he made in the semi defeat last year.
Does anyone seriously think we'll win the Challenge Cup with Lam as head coach?'"
I genuinely believe that he’s way out of his depth
If he doesn’t know what the problems then he should move aside and let someone else take over the role
I’m tired of his “it’s not us” routine. The defeat on Saturday is us as we’ve seen several times over
His lack of graciousness in defeat also grates.
He should have thanked Hull for the lesson on Saturday and wished them well in the SF. Instead he mumbled he didn’t know what happened which if doesn’t know by now then he never will.
His lack of tactical awareness is alarming
Thanks for stepping in on the Edwards debacle but you’re not the guy for the longer term
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| Quote ="Egg Chasing"I don't think we'll win anything under Lam. Our big game management is non existant. It was poor under Wane at times, but under Lam it's even worse.'"
I’m not sure what Lam’s role is within the club
Peet sorts out the defence and Winder the attack.
What does Lam actually add?
We have nothing that other teams can’t replicate. Maybe not as good as us say defensively but it can be replicated. Hard work is a gimme it isn’t unique nor does it guarantee success
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| I wouldn't sack Lam at this stage, but I wouldn't be renewing his contract either. Get a replacement sorted to take over in 2022. Saints are the best team right now, but we aren't even getting as far as being knocked out by them generally. Week-to-week we're probably the 2nd best team in the league, but once it comes to big knockout games we aren't even 2nd. Five different teams have knocked us out of the Cup/League under Lam. Other teams raise their game in those fixtures and we choke.
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| Quote ="nikos"
We had far the better team on paper '"
Did you actually though? I'd say the sides were pretty well matched on paper.
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| Quote ="Pieman"it was, on french and hastings'"
No it wasn’t it was spent on GB
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| Quote ="Grimmy"I wouldn't sack Lam at this stage, but I wouldn't be renewing his contract either. Get a replacement sorted to take over in 2022. Saints are the best team right now, but we aren't even getting as far as being knocked out by them generally. Week-to-week we're probably the 2nd best team in the league, but once it comes to big knockout games we aren't even 2nd. Five different teams have knocked us out of the Cup/League under Lam. Other teams raise their game in those fixtures and we choke.'"
Financially the sack now is I suspect a non starter.
I’d sideline him and make Peet or Winder Joint Head Coach.
Any team is capable of beating us with Lam in charge. Leyth were 18 points up and coasting, York with a severely weakened team gave us problems.
Every game will tight and just on the law of averages and chance we will lose some tight games. I don’t think we will finish in the top 2 and 4th or 5th wouldn’t surprise me.
Not sure what Lam can do personally to move things in the right direction.
He needs advice from someone but not sure if he’s the type to go out and search for it
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| Shaun Wane is the only British coach I would be happy with. Its either that or another Australian assistant. Andrew Henderson is rated quite highly and you will always find NRL assistants keen to do what is essentially an apprenticeship in SL.
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| Quote ="Itchy Arsenal"Financially the sack now is I suspect a non starter.
I’d sideline him and make Peet or Winder Joint Head Coach.
Any team is capable of beating us with Lam in charge. Leyth were 18 points up and coasting, York with a severely weakened team gave us problems.
Every game will tight and just on the law of averages and chance we will lose some tight games. I don’t think we will finish in the top 2 and 4th or 5th wouldn’t surprise me.
Not sure what Lam can do personally to move things in the right direction.
He needs advice from someone but not sure if he’s the type to go out and search for it'"
Nah we get it done in the weekly rounds. Leigh weren't coasting against us at all we just had a poor start in that game then turned it round after about half an hour. I've no idea when York gave us problems, we just ground them down for 60 minutes then pulled away like we do with everyone because we are the fitter team. I'd expect us to be top 2 under Lam, but that's no good if you can't go on to win in the play offs/final. I'm as upset with the loss as anyone but let's not overstate how bad we are.
Making the decision now to recruit a replacement for 2022 should hopefully allow time to find the right candidate rather than being pressured into hiring whoever happens to be available. Giving Peet or Winder the reins with Lam in the background sounds like a recipe for disaster. Either they listen to him and we have the same problems as what we have now, or they ignore him and he doesn't add anything. Nothing stopping them applying for the job in 2022 of course.
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| Quote ="Grimmy"Nah we get it done in the weekly rounds. Leigh weren't coasting against us at all we just had a poor start in that game then turned it round after about half an hour. I've no idea when York gave us problems, we just ground them down for 60 minutes then pulled away like we do with everyone because we are the fitter team. I'd expect us to be top 2 under Lam, but that's no good if you can't go on to win in the play offs/final. I'm as upset with the loss as anyone but let's not overstate how bad we are.
Making the decision now to recruit a replacement for 2022 should hopefully allow time to find the right candidate rather than being pressured into hiring whoever happens to be available. Giving Peet or Winder the reins with Lam in the background sounds like a recipe for disaster. Either they listen to him and we have the same problems as what we have now, or they ignore him and he doesn't add anything. Nothing stopping them applying for the job in 2022 of course.'"
A Joint Head Coach could perhaps help avoid a constructive dismissal if we can’t afford to get shut in 2021
By the way I don’t think there is any chance of any change in 2021 and realistically like you suggest changes won’t occur until next season. I just don’t rate the guy and would like him offloaded sooner rather than later.
“We ground York down for 60 minutes “ sort of sums us up for me.
I don’t think we are a bad team I just think that a better coach would get more out of the team even with it’s deficiencies
A agree 100% that fitness has won us matches and no doubt will do so in the future I’m just not as certain that it will suffice enough for us to grab a second place in the league
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| Quote ="MadDogg"Shaun Wane is the only British coach I would be happy with. Its either that or another Australian assistant. Andrew Henderson is rated quite highly and you will always find NRL assistants keen to do what is essentially an apprenticeship in SL.'"
I expect the board is gutted they missed out on Radford....
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| The risk if we leave it too long is that the coaches we’d want will all be tied down for 2022 and clubs won’t really want to release them without enough time to source a replacement. We’re then left with slim pickings and second rate coaches, the type that would be second rate to Lam.
I bear no grudge against Lam and wish him very well but it’s a thanks but no thanks and I’d be amazed if IL/KR aren’t thinking the same.
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| On the other site there on about Wane again..
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| Quote ="Wigg'n"Not once did we try an early kick behind Fonua for French to chase. Or exploit their big men around the ruck - Powell was literally anonymous.'" The kick behind Fonua was a worry of mine because you did it against Cas leading to a try and Fonua turns like a oil tanker. As for Powell he doesn't help your props whatsoever, offers zero running threat so the square markers can shoot off fast and get at the ball carrier, it's not like he even takes a step out to engage the square markers.
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| I like winning trophies and Wane will do that. The rugby is worse now than it was under Waney, so that excuse from Lenagan hasn’t worked out. If Wigan want to play an ultra attacking brand of rugby, they’re going to need some big forwards who are difficult to pull down and who will offload the ball. If we don’t invest in them then Wane is exactly the man we’ll need to work with the forwards we have.
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| Quote ="NickyKiss"I like winning trophies and Wane will do that. The rugby is worse now than it was under Waney, so that excuse from Lenagan hasn’t worked out. If Wigan want to play an ultra attacking brand of rugby, they’re going to need some big forwards who are difficult to pull down and who will offload the ball. If we don’t invest in them then Wane is exactly the man we’ll need to work with the forwards we have.'"
We also don't know what impact 3 years of what has essentially been CPD will have done for Wane.
Whether its at Wigan or not he needs to be working on a full-time basis - he's too good not to be and its clear its driving him round the bend not being out on the training field every week. He'll put up with it in a World Cup year but after that I can't see Wane continuing as England coach unless he's allowed to do it alongside a club role.
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| Quote ="NickyKiss"I like winning trophies and Wane will do that. The rugby is worse now than it was under Waney, so that excuse from Lenagan hasn’t worked out. If Wigan want to play an ultra attacking brand of rugby, they’re going to need some big forwards who are difficult to pull down and who will offload the ball. If we don’t invest in them then Wane is exactly the man we’ll need to work with the forwards we have.'"
I get what you’re saying and I find myself agreeing but I think that ship for Wane and Wigan has sailed. Whatever [ireally [/ihappened leading to him leaving can’t have repaired itself and I just don’t believe bringing Wane back is a good move. I feel we need a new direction and step away from the perceived ‘thugby’ style we play.
The style IL wants - and some fans for that matter - requires heavy investment and an overhaul of coaching from top to bottom. That was never in a million years going to happen under Lam and further to that was never going to happen with a pack that struggles to make yards and offload. It’s not a case of bringing in Justin Holbrook (for example) and it’s sorted. We need the players to match that style 1-17 and I’m not convinced we have that style. We attack and attack well sometimes but our games are generally won on our blood-to-water style defence. That’s our style, that’s how we ware teams down and go on to win through then shifting the ball attacking tired teams. If anything it probably makes us look better than we actually are.
That’s not what Wane will bring and we’ll have disgruntled “fans” all over again whinging they’re bored despite winning trophies expecting the Monie style Wigan to con rolling back. I’m not calling for it by any means but if you want that type coach who’s available you’d go to Brian McDermott who again has a proven track record but yet seems to be ridiculed relentlessly.
I’d be taking serious looks at Jason Demetriou or Craig Fitzgibbon personally. Both are extremely well rated and it’s purely a matter of time before they get a Head Coaches gig.
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| Quote ="100% Warrior"I get what you’re saying and I find myself agreeing but I think that ship for Wane and Wigan has sailed. Whatever [ireally [/ihappened leading to him leaving can’t have repaired itself and I just don’t believe bringing Wane back is a good move. I feel we need a new direction and step away from the perceived ‘thugby’ style we play.
The style IL wants - and some fans for that matter - requires heavy investment and an overhaul of coaching from top to bottom. That was never in a million years going to happen under Lam and further to that was never going to happen with a pack that struggles to make yards and offload. It’s not a case of bringing in Justin Holbrook (for example) and it’s sorted. We need the players to match that style 1-17 and I’m not convinced we have that style. We attack and attack well sometimes but our games are generally won on our blood-to-water style defence. That’s our style, that’s how we ware teams down and go on to win through then shifting the ball attacking tired teams. If anything it probably makes us look better than we actually are.
That’s not what Wane will bring and we’ll have disgruntled “fans” all over again whinging they’re bored despite winning trophies expecting the Monie style Wigan to con rolling back. I’m not calling for it by any means but if you want that type coach who’s available you’d go to Brian McDermott who again has a proven track record but yet seems to be ridiculed relentlessly.
I’d be taking serious looks at Jason Demetriou or Craig Fitzgibbon personally. Both are extremely well rated and it’s purely a matter of time before they get a Head Coaches gig.'"
Fitzgibbon has already been given the Cronulla job.
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| Quote ="100% Warrior"I get what you’re saying and I find myself agreeing but I think that ship for Wane and Wigan has sailed. Whatever [ireally [/ihappened leading to him leaving can’t have repaired itself and I just don’t believe bringing Wane back is a good move. I feel we need a new direction and step away from the perceived ‘thugby’ style we play.
The style IL wants - and some fans for that matter - requires heavy investment and an overhaul of coaching from top to bottom. That was never in a million years going to happen under Lam and further to that was never going to happen with a pack that struggles to make yards and offload. It’s not a case of bringing in Justin Holbrook (for example) and it’s sorted. We need the players to match that style 1-17 and I’m not convinced we have that style. We attack and attack well sometimes but our games are generally won on our blood-to-water style defence. That’s our style, that’s how we ware teams down and go on to win through then shifting the ball attacking tired teams. If anything it probably makes us look better than we actually are.
That’s not what Wane will bring and we’ll have disgruntled “fans” all over again whinging they’re bored despite winning trophies expecting the Monie style Wigan to con rolling back. I’m not calling for it by any means but if you want that type coach who’s available you’d go to Brian McDermott who again has a proven track record but yet seems to be ridiculed relentlessly.
I’d be taking serious looks at Jason Demetriou or Craig Fitzgibbon personally. Both are extremely well rated and it’s purely a matter of time before they get a Head Coaches gig.'"
Fitzgibbon has the Cronulla job from next season I think. Wigan need to decide what we want to be. If we’re after playing attacking rugby then you need the right personnel. There’s no point saying we want to bring fans back by wowing them with the brand of rugby but then keep signing grafters in the pack like Singleton or filling it with young grafters like Partington and Smithies.
Cas probably played the best rugby we’ve seen in superleague in 2017 and they did that on the basis of having big, offloading forwards like Moors, Millington and Sene Lefao. I think a lot of Lams talk of playing attacking rugby is hot air anyway because even somebody like Bateman is playing one up, risk free rugby most of the time, so it doesn’t ring true that he wants us to entertain but even if he did want to, we don’t have the right forwards for it.
We have two options for me and that’s 1-we want to change the brand of rugby so we need to change the style of player we’re signing or bring through and we’ll need a squad overhaul (mainly in the forwards) or 2-we back the style of player we currently have, currently sign and currently bring through, so we need a coach that suits that and there’s nobody better than Wane. He’d be great for lads like Partington and Smithies. If any relationships between him and Lenagan are beyond repair I don’t know but if they’re not, it’s an easy decision for me.
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