But what you are failing to acknowledge is that Wigan play differently to Saints.

Wigan are second in tries scored, and third in metres made. If your mark is metres made then were behind Wire. It doesn't work like that does it.

Jonh have a word with RH he'll tell you that was the reason why we didn't persue Walmsley.

I'm not calling the lateral movement reason into question I am however bemused by the notion that we then sign Tautai if that is a justified reason.

I also understand we play a different style to Saints but I also think that using that to justify our weakness in the Props is slightly cart in front of horse. Why not have good go forward across the pitch? The lack of go forward in the pack and inconsistencies in the halves were raised as an issue by a significant number of people prior to the season, I see no evidence that, that was not justified.

I get what Rogues is saying about some clubs having a different way of using their props. At Leeds we set up to get a load of metres from our back 3 (has really hurt us missing Briscoe and at times Hall and Hardaker). It's a different style and sometimes it doesn't work but other times it's a great advantage. Also get the defensive thing because we had Kirke and Bailey for years and a lot of our fans couldn't stamd them because of low carry totals in attack but both provided good solid defence.

Personally though I'm delighted we didn't end up with Mossop and we're a club who are sort on numbers once injuries hit so that's saying something. Whilst I highhlighted Kirke and Bailey at Leeds, they were sub props who came on and did a job. Mossop is a starter, an international, a former NRL prop. He should be doing more. It's one thing for your sub props to do a job defensively like Kirke and Bailey but it'd be nothing if the starter in Peacock didn't run the ball in on attack consistanly.

That you usually have 4 props in your match day 17 you shouldn't be looking for them all to do the same thing in attack and defence but they should as a unit complement each other. If you had 4 props who could run well but can't defend for toffee it's not good. Visa versa 4 good defenders who do little in attack is no good either. When you're the starter though for a top 4 club you should be impressing in both departments. Subs can be excused for doing a certain aspect of the job, a starter not so much.

Classic Rogues

So SW has decided that the traditional prop role is now redundant.

He could be the only coach in world RL to think this way yet he'll still find support on this board.

No matter what ridiculous depths he sinks to you'll always get someone on here who will back him.

Probably yes.

He's so frustrating because for 3 or 4 games out of 10 he looks a top player but then he goes back in to the old lethargic routine.

I cant say id noticed him out on the field to be honesy

And as for Walmsley, any team in SL and most in the NRL would porbably have him given the chance. Top player

Nah, his style doesn't fit Wigan. All he does it make metres.

can he play ?

There's an old saying 'props win pots'. Without a superior engine room a team will find it difficult to win the arm wrestle putting the backs in the right position on the pitch to score and win the game.

In our props we should expect them to make the hard yards down the middle putting the team in the right positions on the park, in tern tiring the opposition through forcing them to make repeat tackles on the larger hard running props. In defence they tackle and do what they can to drive the opposition back.

Without the engine room we are on the back foot. However as much as the props need to step up what about the 9? They need a smart 9 who can read the game and the defensive line, scoot to make a quick 10-15, and provide good distribution bringing the forwards into the game, Cam Smith is the master of this.

Lee has been out injured for most of last season. He came back over here with big question marks over his fitness, particularly his shoulders. If he is feeling his way through games, then I can understand that. He will be gradually getting his confidence back.

We know he's a good player, let's cut him some slack hey? I'd expect him to improve and put more in as the season goes on. All the players looked tired on Friday - a two week rest will do everyone good. We are handily placed for the rest of the season, hopefully with Gelling back soon too.

You're surely not complaining about McIllorum?

More referring to the lack of interchange 9.

Undoubtedly he's a good player. I would say however that his running game isn't the greatest.

It's the same as our HB- everyone knows they are going to pass the ball along the line. Would be good if scooted every so often or through the dummy. At least it would fix a couple of players.

GW does this fairly often and has scored a few tries from line breaks this year.

Is his distribution and decision making also the best?

Its not Mossop that is poor it is the stystem we play. We do not need props tbh our best prop this season is a converted centre/2nd row.

If we had

Petero Civoniceva
Stuart Fielden
Shane Webcke
James Graham

They would have stats similar to what we have now. If Wane actually let his props carry the ball more we would get less errors and a lot more wins. But ehhhh what does Madge, Bennett etc know. Wane is killing our props. We might as well not have them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - we desperately need two Terry O'Connor type props. Workhorses who do the hard work in the background but who you miss when they're not in the team.

Under Maguire we didn't have a prop in the top 20 metre makers.

I actually think he's a decent player.

He must be doing something right as he's played a big role for us over a few trophy filled seasons.

I think we spell our props too often tbh and that obviously effects stats like carries/tackles/metres.

I look at Tony Clubb and how he's played and I'd want him on the field for 60-70 mins a game. If he's not fit enough to do that then they need to improve that until he is. We're so robotic in our interchanges and it's not the way to go IMO. The props know however well or poorly they play they're still all getting equal minutes and it doesn't drive competition.

I want them all striving to be our number one prop and to want to be on the field longer. They all need to look at Jamie Peacocks reaction when they try to spell him at an important point of a game.

I do think the apparent, upcoming reduction in interchanges from 10 to 6 would give our smaller pack a big advantage in the coming years. Now whether Wigan were/are aware of this and have been planning ahead, I'm not sure.

At certain elements he's great, at others; not so much.

FWIW i agree with you but we've said he's not got a great running game, his distribution isn't great and neither is his game management



Key attributes really for a hooker.

How convenient that Lima was 21st top metre maker in 2011 and 9th in 2012 (still playing Maguire's tactics). Guess it suited your agenda though.
Maguire was blessed with one of SL's best ever 3/4 lines and Sam Tomkins scoring ridiculous solo tries. We don't have that now.