Fine but are these lads now pro RL players? The point I was making is the best young players end up as captains of junior sides because they are the best players and I expect several of our current first team squad have captained junior sides as well.

They can end up as captain for other reasons as well of course.....

Dave

Hang on. People use the fact he captained junior sides as proof he is a natural leader and all we are pointing out captaining junior and senior sides is like chalk and cheese.

If anything is ridiculous it is using his captaincy of junior sides to back up him having the job as a professional player. It's a completely different ball game.

As to Millward and the rest of his Wigan coaches choosing him as captain Maquire is the first with some balls to do something about it. One of the big problems we have had at this club recently is when a new coach arrived that was the only thing that changed! They carried on overseeing a club as described by Radlinski and nothing fundamental changed. The status quo was maintained and we went from one average season to the next.

I therefore see this captaincy move as just part of the long overdue revolution the club needed to give it the kick up the backside so desperately required.

Dave

Dave,
Would you agree that John Kear, Mike Gregory, Dennis Betts, Ian Millward, Brian Noble and Mike Maguire were all respected "senior coaches" and they picked O'Loughlin as a senior side captain?

Quote ="arcticchris"I simply cannot believe that nobody has noticed the fact that Melbourne Storm had a very similar leadership group with the likes of Scott Hill, Cam Smith, Kidwell etc for about 2 or 3 years before Cameron Smith emerged as the full time leader and captain of the side and club. This seems to have worked very well both in developing team responsibilty and in grooming Smith to do a superb job without having been thrust into a full time role at 21. It would be good if one of the younger players was included in this scheme such as sam tomkins or harrison hansen to build for the future.'" They still have a leadership group www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 5818579631 paragraph 3

Quote ="arcticchris"I simply cannot believe that nobody has noticed the fact that Melbourne Storm had a very similar leadership group with the likes of Scott Hill, Cam Smith, Kidwell etc for about 2 or 3 years before Cameron Smith emerged as the full time leader and captain of the side and club. This seems to have worked very well both in developing team responsibilty and in grooming Smith to do a superb job without having been thrust into a full time role at 21. It would be good if one of the younger players was included in this scheme such as sam tomkins or harrison hansen to build for the future.'" They still have a leadership group www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 5818579631 paragraph 3

No.

Since when was Milllward respected coach round here? I am still convinced he appointed Lockers for the headlines of appointing a young captain. A deliberately controversial move in my opinion that got the headlines he wanted.

Ditto Betts - when was he considered a respected coach? He was never officially head coach anyway. Scraping the barrel with this one aren't you?

Kear? Many don't rate him and would never want him as a Wigan coach but that wasn't as a club captain either. Strange how he becomes a respected coach because he appointed Lockers to England A or whatever it was having left us under a bit of a cloud I seem to recall.

Maquire - he is the one who has just asked O'Loughlin to do the job part time so this is not what I'd call a ringing endorsement.

Noble would stick with a dead duck if it had a number 1 through 17 on its back so I would never envisage such a change coming from him in a million years even if Lockers lost a leg. Loyalty first, common sense second should be Nobles motto. No recommendation IMO.

That leaves Mike Gregory in your list and it wasn't him who gave him the Wigan job so I assume you mean he chose him as captain for one of the junior England sides or similar which doesn't count IMO - it being a junior side as discussed previously. Gregory also wasn't a senior coach when he appointed Lockers as captain.

Dave

No He didn't.He gave Locky the choice.Locky chose this new way

All the coaches I named have worked with O'Loughlin on a full time basis, three have coached at representative level, yet we have a few "fans" who see him at most 30 times a season (and the ones who protesteth most probably don't see him that much) telling all and sundry that he is not a captain.

I beggars belief.

How many of our experts will be at Wakefield, Leigh and Warrington?

As I said previously, the five captain thing (one of whom is O'Loughlin) may or may not work. I am not losing any sleep over it.

Roll on Sunday.

Category A fans I reckon.

So, Dave, basically it comes down to the same as BK. You'll happily quote things that support your argument but when it doesn't, then it's obviously lies! Maguire has said that O'Loughlin had the choice to stay captain but liked and supported the idea of shared responsibility. He's reiterated it on several occasions, both in print and online. Yet you keep going on about 'having the balls to do something about it' etc. Basically you're choosing to ignore the facts as stated simply because it doesn't support your view and instead post on some unfounded speculation on your part as though it was fact. Frankly, that's poor, but hey! I suppose message boards have never been the place for balance or accuracy. As the saying goes; why let the facts get in the way of a good conspiricy theory, eh?

Dave, I've already posted so I won't say the same things over again. You can't be serious with this post though, surely!?!

I really don't want this to get into a personal argument, so I will be brief.


1. Previous captaincy of teams means zip. As stated, citing Lockers being captain of the school team is laughable.

2. MM- He is unlikely to state that Lockers was "gutted" about losing the captaincy is he? Think about all the implications. Same with Lockers.


And before we start this season, and for the record I don't "hate" Lockers as some have insinuated. I do feel he is overrated, but that's because some put him on a pedestal.

I think he is a decent enough player, with an excellent work ethic. He is a solid 2nd row imo and both his game and Wigan's would benefit if that fact was realised.


What doesn't help him is the burden of leadership (as it doesn't suit him), and being asked to play in positions where he is made to look foolish. e.g. Stand off. His nature of putting his hand up and doing whatever is asked of him (a great quality as it is) doesn't help in this respect.

I appreciate this is a little off-topic, but I thought it worth making the points that I am making are not founded on a predjudice against Lockers, more my own interpretation of the facts.

I can't agree with the thesis that Lockers only supports this five-man thing because he has no choice.

He does have a choice.

In the past, there have been major issues at clubs when players have lost the captaincy. Ellery Hanely and Shaun Edward are two names that spring to mind.

Lockers could easily take his ball home if he wanted to. But he seems to be genuinely on message with this. And regardless of whether he deserves the 'pedestal' that people put him on or even whether he deserves to be captain or not, I think the lad should be given credit for putting the good of the team ahead of any personal priority.

Most one eyed and straw clutching post I've ever read.

Did Sean not rate Mr Higham either Dave?

I'd have thought we all would have learned by now!

Here here, Lockers IMO was and still is a fantastic captain. However this 5man captain system is - as by the reaction on here - slightly controversial, but I like the idea.

Lockers, Fielden, Bailey, Carmont, Deacon and Tommy L are the people I think would probably be in the 5 - but Maguire seems to be 'un-predictable' and I could/probably will, be completel wrong

why do people insist in putting Fielden in the senior players group??? The squad elected the 5 and without saying too much there is not a chance he would be considered in this. If you want proof wait till the start of the season and see if he ever captains the side.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't Fielden a 'senior player' anyway?

Proof? I don't want/need proof. If I'm being quite honest it doesn't bother me too much who is in the 5.

the five should be

fielden- one of the most senior players who has been around super league for years.
lockers- been in the wigan team since 2002, whens his testimonial?
deacon- wigan born and bred, natural leader, captain of bradford
gleeson- captained england, wigan born and bred l
bailey- been all around the game, and has been a leader in this squad for a while

I never mentioned him not being a senior player to those who seem to think I did - I just said he would/has not been voted into the senior player group. He is very senior - experience wise. Leadership wise there might be a good few in the team who would not choose him on this quality.

I was speculating - but as you say, Fielden is an experienced player and has IMO leadership qualities.

Lets not turn this into another player bashing thread.

I don't think you'll be far wrong there

2/5 me thinks!

Lockers was appointed Wigan captain by Millward and was retained in that role by "Mr misplaced loyalty" Brian Noble.

In other words he was appointed to the role by two coaches who I do not rate so why is that a recommendation?

It's no use people saying he was appointed captain by this or that coach as if this proves anything if those coaches were not considered any good!

Dave

What did you think of his performance yesterday Dave?
1) as a player

2) as a captain

Dave, your post basically took half a dozen professionals from the sport, most of whom had both played [uand[/u coached at the highest level; several respected captains in their own right and said that your opinion on O'Loughlin was right and all theirs was wrong! Now, I have nothing against Meglomania per se, but I do feel that was attaching just a liitle [utoo[/u much significance to your own views. Ever considered the fact that you might actually be wrong once in a while?