Yes,but i fail to agree that Wigan have only won most of their games by playing poorly.Maybe they have not played to maximum potential but to say they have played poorly and won most of their games is daft to say the least. I can only assume that if you think we have played so poorly yet won games that you think the opposition have played even poorer and let us win.

Your taking the whole aniti-Noble thing to another level. Seriously Jonh,do you dream about Noble? It is 100% not normal for somebody to be as obsessed with a man as you are with Brian Noble. You will try anything to turn the whole message board against him.

Let me turn this question around and ask you this Jon. Do you believe you can put in a 'good performance' without it being 'the very best you can play'? You seem unable to distinguish the one from the other. A simple Yes or no will do.

Given your cameo posts after a good win and picking him as man of the match on Saturday i am starting to think its you that dreams about Noble!!

I did not say they have played poorly and won most of there games. I said they played poorly against Celtic thats it!

I credit people for thinking for themselves. I do not claim to speak for the people unlike you and simply say as i see. I am happy to praise Noble after the weekend and have done. Its a shame you are not able to criticise his failings after a poor coaching performance and only choose to comment after a good one.

If you have read the thread the answer is there for you.

If you are of the opinion i cannot distinguish one from the other you cannot have read the thread.

My issue is consistency.

I have said we have improved in the last 3 weeks which we have.

The Saints first game performance was way above the Celtic performance, we slipped again significantly off the back of that. Against Celtic we were poor, against Wakefield we were average, against Saints we were fantastic.

I would hardly constitute that a run of consistant form?!

Bradford drop off of form, Saints game 1 followed by a drop off of form. Saints game 2........? In the Bradford and Saints game one were were far from outstanding as well, Saints game 2 we were.

If you was not so obsessed with putting Noble down week after week,year after year i would have no reason to keep coming on questioning you when he proves you wrong ie.Saturday. You was the guy who stated that he could not coach attacking RL and could only coach the basic 5 drives and a kick. Do you still stand by that?

Anyway, im off to bed now busy day tomorrow, Goodnight. We discuss it more tomorrow night

To your previous post the answer is indeed there. And that is why I posted what I did. Please drop the condesending tone when speaking to me, I don't appreciate it.

As for this post. Are you saying that, as a conditioning coach for Wakefield (I am right in that assumption aren't I?), you believe that all performance improvements should be linear?

I'm amazed at the difference between Wigan's tactics at the beginning of the season with the last two games. It's as though we have got a new coach.
Wakefield at home was 5 drives and a kick. I remember looking at my watch when there were 3 minutes left and only 6 points behind. We were still driving the ball in.
At Wakefield we were like the Harlem Globetrotters.
It seems like Noble has seen the light twice and is reading this forum.
We cried out long and for Sam and Ainscough to be given a chance. It took a while but he finally succumbed and performances improved.
We also lambasted the boring tactics which blighted too many early season games and once again he has responded.
Why didn't he see the light earlier? Like last season or the season before. We are now playing summer rugby. Yes, I'm truly amazed that he has seen the light.

The bold can't be true Salty. Apparently we were only average at Wakefield.

as the next game i'll get to see will be leeds in the summer (already got my ticket) i'm looking forward so much to the game!!!

Once again i know nothing about you, you know nothing about me despite what you think.

Many people i speak to assess performance by the win and loss colum, it seemed to me you were doing the same.

Improvement to me suggests improvement. You stated we have improved since the arrival of Gleeson etc, when in my opinion we player well against Saints game 1 but lack cohesion, maybe due to the basic style we had been playing? We then slipped well back vs Celtic, improved slightly against Wakefield then pulled a superb performance out of the bag vs Saints.

The Wakefield game is a big one simply due to the fact it is the cup. The Hull KR game and the Wire game in my opinion will show us how far we have come because i do not think we can get away with an average performance and win, hence it will point towards some consistency.

This is the one thing that shocks me with the die hard Noble fans, for the last 2/3 years the people that slate him have been calling for the tactics we use when we play well, but we to date have only seen them employed once in a blue moon, when the game is lost or in the playoffs when we look less than polished doing them against a top team.

They then come back on here and call us for pointing out the issues, that they seem to support regardless of how we play.

First up, to say 'once again' implies you have said something before. I think you'll find this is the first time you've said this, so I'm not sure what your point is here...

Moving on to the post proper. I asked you if improvement, in your opinion, is always linear. So far you have ducked the issue yet what you describe above is non-linear improvement. It's just that you prefer to see it as an 'isolated performance' for some reason. For someone employed in what amounts to a performance/improvent based job, I find this strange. Let me re-iterate...

Saints 1st Match. Good performance (we have both agreed on this point, yes?) However the defence was weak whenever pressured as shown by the fact that Saints were able to turn every attacking opportunity into points. Also we had a distinct inability to finish good lead up work. Some even said clueless in around the opposition line. I wouldn't go that far myself but would agree that this was something that needed improving. Which brings us to....

Celtic. Enthusiasm and intensity were not as good as the Saints game but as I said in a previous post, rightly or wrongly this is often the case with 'lesser' games. It's easier to get up for big games against Saints/Leeds etc than it is against the likes of celtic etc. However I will accept this as a qualified 'regression'. On the plus side, Our defence was better, if not perfect, but the big improvement came in our ability to finish the good approach play. Something we weren't able to do in the previous match. Also we managed to turn our superiority into a win on the back of it...something we had failed to do in the previous game. An improvement? Well on 3 fronts yes, although not the quantum leap we would have liked to have seen perhaps. let's, for the sake of argument, call it a curate's egg of an improvement. Which brings us to....

Wakefield. Improved intensity and enthusiasm from the previous game. Maintained the ability to finish the approach work and an all round improvement in attack. To date our best attacking performance of the season. In defence a major step up from both previous matches as we denied Wakefield any clear cut attacking opportunities with ball in hand. However, still gave away too much cheap possession and didn't respect the ball enough. Gifted Wakefield 2 of their tries. Improvement over the previous game? Certainly. Over the 1st Saints game? In terms of enthusiasm about the same, attack.. better, goal line and general defence.. better, errors...worse, result/ability to turn attacking opportunities into points...quantum leap forward! Which brings us to...


Saints 2nd Match. Enthusiasm/intensity improved still further. Attack and ability to turn pressure into points..about the same, Defence...better, errors/respecting the ball...quantum leap forward!

All in all the very definition of a non-linear improvement! Good performances have to be taken in context of the performances that preceeded them. If you think that it's an absolute (something I seriously doubt you take into your own job!) then you don't live in the real world. I have been watching this game for over 20 years and I have yet to see a team go from an inability to win to consitant world beaters 'overnight'! Improvement is taken a step at a time and a good performance should be taken in that context.

You continue to imply things about me that are way off the mark, not sure why you are going there to be honest.

Improvement is improvement but we have been here before so forgive my cartwheels when we still remain 9th in the league.

You seem to think i am slating Noble after this performance when infact i think he did a great job, and am happy to say he has played himself into a much more secure position. Fair play to him.

Lets look at the facts we have played poorly for most of this season, hence our position in the table when we have played a game more than the teams around us.

Other teams are also playing themselves into some form, the test will now come over the next few weeks especially the Hull KR and Wire games in my opinion, as we will be playing 2 teams who are in Hulls case near the top of there game and in Wire's case certainly on the up. The Celtic and Trinity performances came over 2 teams who were both off the boil, i do not think you can quantify improvement against 2 teams that produced probably there worst performances of the season against us.

yes i agree brian noble reads this forum

So in short Jon, you can find no reason to counter the argument other than to quote our league position which, as you full well know has nothing to do with how we have played over the last 3 games and everything to do with our poor start to the season. Think we'll leave it at that then, other than to say I'm not sure which implications I'm making which are wrong about you. Perhaps that is better left to a PM though.

What is the argument exactly?

I am not a Conditioner for Wakefield Trinity.

Well given you accused me of not properly reading your posts I'm surprised we've posted so many times and you're still not sure what the argument is!





I detailed above why I considered there to be a consistent, if non-linear, improvement over the last 3 or 4 games. Something you dispute, yet you haven't pointed out where you consider the points I made to be wrong.

I thought you have said in the past that you were on the conditioning staff at a rugby club? I assumed that it was Wakefield. Sorry if that assumption was incorrect, but it doesn't negate the points I made regarding your approach to the job just because it isn't at Wakefield. That is, assuming you are a conditioner of course....

I have no conection to any rugby club so lets draw a line under that. Why you continue to try to draw on the issue of what i am or am not i cannot understand but i have nothing to prove to you or anybody else on here thanks.

I am not disputing there has been improvement at all, i am simply not getting worked up about it till we consistently perform to what i envisage to be an acceptable standard for the players we have.

Looking at the last 3 to 4 weeks would you expect anything less than an improvement? We were shocking against Les Cats, poor against a very poor Celtic team who produced one of the worst SL displays i have ever seen. we were average against Trinity who put in there worst performance of 2009 and then superb against Saints, as i have stated on several occasions i do not think the performances in the build up to the Saints game were or an acceptable standard given the players we have, as occasional performances then fair enough but a run of 2 poor and 1 average performance hardly has me getting carried away. The Saints game was a superb performance.

All in the garden seems to be rosey as we have strung a few results together but not really had to perform apart from vs Saints. All i am saying is i will reserve judgement of how far we have come and where we are at after the Hull KR and Wire games 2 teams who are on the up. The cup game vs Wakefield is a tricky one as both teams are so unpredicatable in form and especially the occasion all we have to do is win, that will be good enough. The cup tends to throw up so odd scores simply because they are one off in nature and this can squeue the results so as long as we win by 1 or 100 i won't be reading too much into it personally.

We have had 3 years under Brian Noble we should not be happy clapping over improvement mid way through his third season. What happens if we do not perform as well as we did vs Saints this weekend (which i do not expect we will for 1 minute), and then there is no improvement?

The window you are chosing to referance as a period of improvement is firstly tiny and secondly starting from a shocking performance, forgive me for putting it in context.

What does what i do or not do have to do with you, or my opinion?

Forgive me Phuzzy but i do find it funny that you were the person i was "arguing" with, now you decide it was meaningless? I was looking forward to your response.

I think i have given a decent response to the "argument", never considered it that actually, but you chose to say its closed fair enough. Not sure why you have attempted to get personal when you clearly know nothing about me, to be honest mate think that says more about you than i could.

Well I think a fair definition of argument is two people 'arguing' *cough* two different sides of a debate. However the fact that you once again choose to be pedantic and use veiled insults says more about you than I could!

Jon, as I said, I consider it meaningless because 1) you're not reading my posts or choosing not to answer them properly. 2) you keep regurgitating such facts as 'we are in 9th' even that has no bearing on the ponts I've raised. 3) You single out the least significant points from my post and choose to answer those whilst continually ignoring the points which I am trying to put across. 4) you seem to think the point of debate these days (and I have to say I've noticed this from most of your recent posts) is to prove yourself right rather than offer/take/discuss interesting points. and finally 5) you seem to think that making snide and condesending comments whilst accusing other posters of 'getting personal' somehow absolves you of your actions.

Well, I for one consider that to be meaningless debate and was the reason I said the matter was closed. It was simply going nowhere. Now may I suggest we take this to PM to spare anyone else having to suffer this dross!

I cannot be bothered with this anymore to be honest, my thoughts and counter argument is made in the 3rd post up from the bottom of the last page, which you have chosen to pick 1 section of and ignore the content.

Im happy to leave it at that.

Have you 2 thought about marriage, you would make a great couple.

Couple of what though!