The second punch makes it impossible to defend him. If he'd just punched him the once I'd have sat here today and said 'fair enough' because Hohiha can't do what he does without expecting to get a clip. That second one though is ridiculous and puts the spotlight all on him when it shouldn't be.

Totally agree, I just don't go along with Hohaia being the innocent victim.

Not often we agree on here mate but you're spot on. Hohaia's reaction to the initial challenge from Flower was stupid and deserved a smack. The 2nd one was shocking.

I have an issue with the second punch when he was down, totally unacceptable

Firstly I am not a Wigan hater - what your team have done over the last 5 years + should be a blue print for the majority of clubs in Super League. Do I like some of the tactics Wane employs - no. Is there an element of jealousy from me as a rugby supporter toward Wigan - absolutely.

To the incident on Saturday evening.

Ignoring all of the other elements leading up to the event i.e. Hohaia elbow, Flower initial retaliation - the fact is Flower is culpable for an act I can only describe as deplorable. I feel sorry for all genuine Wigan and Rugby fans that paid good money to attend the game. Flower brought both Wigan and the the RFL into disrepute, for that reason alone Wigan should at the very least suspend the player themselves (pretty sure I would lose my job in a comparable incident). Wane's immediate response to support the player was ill advised in my opinion and has not helped his image one iota. No way should he get a life ban (laughable to even suggest), he made a mistake but as his employer Wigan have a responsibility along side the governing bodies disciplinary panel.

Unfortunately for Flower the book needs to be thrown at him in an attempt to repair the damage he has done to the image of the game. Mistake or not this was the show piece event of the British game - frankly anything less than a six month ban and dismissal by his club - he will have got off lightly.

Unfortunately, therein lies the entire problem with the disciplinary in this country - They tend to take that same, skewed view.

"Mistake or not, this was the show piece of the British game............"

So fecking what ????

What you appear to be saying is that if he had done that in a non-televised match, he should receive only a standard punishment, but simply because of the match it took place in, he should be both sacked and banned for at least 6 months ???

Utter garbage.

Sadly, the RFL have been seen to take such things in to account before. ("It's a big occasion, so we'll apply a ban in months, rather than matches"icon_wink.gif.

Or, the complete opposite - "It was REALLY bad, but we need him to play for England". (Yes Mr Westwood, I'm looking at you).

For me, he should receive 1-2 matches for the first punch, plus 4-8 for the second. (Based on the Sonny Nickle ban a few years back - 9 matches for broken jaw)

Hohaia should also receive 1-2 for the elbow.

That's still a substantial (2-3 month) ban, but is more in line with the guidelines set out for striking.

IF he gets more FOR THE ACT, then that's fine, but anyone calling for him to be sacked or banned, simply because it was a big occasion needs to give their head a wobble.

I am saying he brought the game and your club into disrepute - you are missing my fundamental point (maybe I shouldn't have referred to it being the show-piece event).

Had a camera not being there when Carney did the 'unmentionable act' he would still be playing in the NRL. Instead it went viral, the same way the incident did on Saturday, televised game or not, cameras are at every game. The image of Rugby League has been tarnished massively due to the actions of Ben Flower.

Whether Hohaia is banned is irrelevant to what I posted - I have seen less get a ban this season and I have also seen worse go unpunished.

he knocked on you bell end and how can they see from behind the play.

What kind of ban did Morley get for his red in the first minute of the test match that time?

what about if he had a knife or gun? What about if he had a samurai sword and cut him.

Things that didn't happen aren't much use to a real life situation. Whataboutery is the last refuge of the lost argument.

Ben Flower hit a man who was unconscious. Everything else was part and parcel of the game. Happens all the time. Sometimes halves barge in to props. Sometimes props get mad and punch halves.

nobody ever hits unconscious people because it is a dangerous, cowardly dog act of the highest order.

Regardless of the your reasons for getting angry, regardless of their merits, when your anger manifests itself in punching a fellow pro who is unconscious YOU screwed up. No justification, no mitigation.

I understand what you are saying regarding punishments should not be different dependant on it being a showpiece event.
But this thing is in danger of being made into a witch hunt of Wane and the Wigan club as well as Flower when the RFL read the article in todays Daily Express.
It has a column on the back page as well as a double page spread inside, one page deals with the match and the other really tears into Wane regarding his get out and give it to them pre match talks in which his NZ video is given as proof.

Has it been confirmed anywhere that he was unconscious? On the video it seems as though his right hand is up in apparent self defence.

Not to say it wasn't fully deserving of a red card and all, it just doesn't look as though he's unconscious to me, and he was moving about after Flower stepped over him.

the issue is the game is massively tarnished and is being made out to be a thugs sport by the southern media. As you will tell by my user name i now live down here. never heard RL being on the local radio, but it is and it has nothing to do with the result! i have tried for 4 years to change the opinion of my work friends that it isnt just big blokes smashing 7 bells out of each other by showing them clips of absolute skill and passion. however as soon as i came in this morning ive been getting "banter" for that "filthy northern sport" all because of this one incident.

and for this reason it should be a large ban, not sure about being sacked, but bearing in mind ZH got 7 games for calling someone a name you think this should be 1 game more? id also like the ban to take in to account friendlies, be utter crap if he only misses 1 competitive game due to wigan playing 4-5 friendlies

Really???

Look at the pictures man

Years ago I witnessed Alan Hunte elbow Martin Offiah from behind, off the ball deliberately - the popular side cheered (the video is on you tube) - Sonny Nickle was another with form for targeting players. I also witnessed Kelvin Skerret spark people out off the ball on numerous occasions. Paul Cullen was another. Back then people just got on with it and there was none of this witch hunting that goes on.

Flowers punch was a red card and will be dealt with by the RFL. To the credit of L.H he's accepted the apology and holds no grudges. IMO that should be the end of it.

Apparently the police, according to the BBC, are looking into the situation.

"Greater Manchester Police are looking into the punches thrown by Wigan's Wales prop Ben Flower in Saturday's Grand Final defeat by St Helens.
Flower was sent off after two minutes for knocking Lance Hohaia over before landing a second punch while the Saints man was on the ground.
Flower, 26, has since apologised.
The police added they had received no public complaint but they will continue to liaise with the relevant parties before deciding on a course of action.
They include the Rugby Football League, the Criminal Prosecution Service and St Helens.*

Only one friendly is allowed to be counted in in the ban.

You as a Leeds supporter should know that as DannY McGuire has used it in the past.

As for the Flower incident, read todays League Weekly Grand Final supplement (page 11) by Stuart Cummings. It makes very interesting reading.

Is it available online? ta

Are you a wigan fan?

Regards

King James

What difference does that make?

I'm guessing they are Union fans? No doubt you can find several eye gauging incidents to counteract that.

That is the problem though I agree. As usual we get press now that something unsavoury has happened.

Personally I think the ban will be time specific as opposed to number of matches.

Here's my two penny worth:

1. LH tries to impede BF when he's chasing the kick (happens most weeks and sometimes penalised)
2. BF swings an arm and makes contact, probably with his bicep, enough to knock LH off balance (happens most weeks and is seldom penalised)
3. LH chases BF who is then involved with the play as he attempts to collect the ball. As LH gets there though, BF is no longer involved in the play but LH has fired himself up and jumps up with both arms into BF - Not sure it is leading with elbow but more like pushing with forearms. (happens and would normally result in a penalty to BF's team and likely put on report).
4. BF swings punch as LH is standing in front of him, facing him (happens and would usually result in red or penalty to LH team and on report. Not sure a yellow can be given for that foul play)
5. BF stands over barely conscious LH, holds his shirt collar and punches him in the face (not sure what punishment as not seen that before).

I'd imagine that if Flower hadn't have delivered the second punch, he would still have been sent off for the first one but that is open to debate. As the second one is so bad, it makes the first one look acceptable...the rough and tumble of the game. And for those who say you can't expect to make contact with someone and not expect something in return, then surely this can go someway to LH's reason for jumping up at Flower following on from the contact while turning to chase the kick?

Notwithstanding our personal opinions from watching the same thing, it was bad for all parties concerned and portrays our sport in a poor light. I do, however, wish Flower good luck over the next few months and hope he has the chance to get back on with what is a better than average career.

Can you summarise it for those outside the LW circulation area?

I think they'll do that purely because it will look like a more severe punishment.

Without working out the specifics, an 8 month ban will be the same as a 10-12 game ban.

Charged with Grade F. Suggest we close this and move to the other to stop duplication, thanks.