I agree with much of that but the bit in bold is a little strange. How do you know it doesn't work? As far as I'm aware they haven't even played together. I'm guessing that the coaching staff will have tried this combination in training and would only put it into practice if they thought it could work. Besides which, we have won a title with Deacon and Leuluai, neither of whom were really a running threat. The combination may well not work but we simply don't know until we see it in action.

I can't say I'm an expert on Farrimond but I've seen a decent amount of him now between the academy, reserves and first team and I do think there is enough differences between him and Smith to make a partnership possible. He's got more of a running game then Smith for one but I also see him as a bit more of an off the cuff player than Smith. He can organise and kick a side around the field but he comes up with some outrageous bits of individual skill and he looks inventive with his kicking close to the opposition line, which is something I think Smith can struggle with at times. It's probably a conversation for a year or two down the line anyway but they could form a good partnership for me.

I thought the same NK which is why I found Jon's assertion a little strange. He's not a running threat in the way that French is but he certainly has more threat than Smith. He's also got an excellent kicking game in his own right which increases the options there and is something French has needed to add to his game since moving to 6 and is still something he is working on. Different from French for sure, but that's no reason Farrimond couldn't bring his own positives to the combination.

I wouldn't disagree with that, NK, but don't forget French is also 'inventive with his kicking close to the opposition line', and he'll still be in the team! So, we have options.

For me both Smith and Farrimond are organisers primarily.

The reason our halves are so effective is because French is generally a strike player whilst Smith is the midfield general.

Game has changed since the days of Tommy and Deacon.

They could make a good partnership in the future but Farrimond needs time to mature and develop that strike at first team level.

To be honest I’d be surprised though if we see it for more that a season or 2 if at all as front line halves.

I think Farrimond will replace Smith in the similar role rather than play with him, as I expect within 3 years Smith will have headed to the NRL.

Jon, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying you don't know and until you see them play together, that remains the case. It's not like Farrimond is a clone of Smith. They have overlapping skillsets but they also have several points of difference. Farrimond is more of a running threat for example. Not at the same level of French, for sure, but then neither is anyone else in Superleague. To suggest that 2 halves have to be polar opposites to be effective is, at the risk of sounding blunt, nonsense. Peet has recently said that they're looking to develop Smith's running game (why, if French is the running half?) and that they want French to develop his kicking game (why, if Smith is the kicker?). The answer to both those questions is, of course, that overlapping skillsets is desirable. Obviously, you would want points of difference too, but both halves being able to kick, for example, gives you options and makes you less predictable.

I've seen enough of Farrimond to be able to say that he has things in his locker that Smith doesn't have. Obviously, at 18 years of age, it's a question of whether he can continue to develop these enough to stand out at Superleague level as he does at academy level. That's the only variable that would determine whether he and Smith could perform well together, not that they have some similarities.

Finally, you say the game has moved on. Good half back play today is exactly the same as it's always been. Edwards and Gregory would be as good a pairing today as it was then. Deacon and Leuluai wouldn't suddenly become ineffective against Dodd and Lomax or Williams and Drinkwater when they won a title against much better players.

It’s interesting that the halves you mention all compliment each other in regards Edwards v Gregory, Dodd v Lomax and Drinkwater v Williams.

All have an organiser and a runner.

The game these days is currently seeing a trend of to use the Australian terms 5/8th (strike) and half back (organisers) for me both Smith are Farrimond are half backs naturally.

Can 2 half backs work? Probably but you need to find some considerable ball playing strike elsewhere like Tomkins for example with Deacon and Leuleui.

It’s the same reason Williams came in for Lewis in the Tongan test series last year.

Big call from fans for Williams and Lewis to partner given Lewis’ form in the first 2 games, but both are natural 5/8ths. Smith was always going to play as the halfback in that team.

Like French/Field with Smith and Farrimond for example?

With regards to Dodd/Lomax you're about 2 years too late. Neither takes the line on successfully any more. They are both ineffectual runners and are both more organizing halves now. Drinkwater is often criticized for having a terrible kicking game and not being a good enough organizing half (although I'd concede that's probably his intended role) so in both instances your appraisal falls short. I think you also forget that Edwards spent as much time as a 7 during his career as he did a 6.

As an outsider looking in, my understanding of Farrimond is that he is more of an oragnising 7 so I would lean more towards John.

However it would all depend on how Wigan would use them both- as split halves or on ball?

Sometimes halfbacks come along who can do it all and while it may not transfer in to the first team, I see Farrimond as one of those at academy level. Yes, he is an organiser but he's got a good running game and can play off the cuff as well. The step up may be too big, who knows but theres potential there for him to play alongside any type of halfback partner for me.

It won't be an issue for us for a year or two anyway. Talking of that, something will need to give at Wigan if he is to get a regular spot down the track.

I agree re Dodd and Lomax which also coincided with Saints decline as both have become halves as Lomax has aged and he has adapted his game and they have lost strike in the front line.

Drinkwater wouldn’t be getting a game were it not for Leon Hayes injury again a player who is an out and out half.

Edwards again adapted as he aged and took on the organiser role after Gregory and was paired with running halves like Botica and Paul much like many have done over the years as they lose that yard of pace like Danny McGuire did at Leeds and Shaun Johnson has more recently with New Zealand Warriors to great effect.

Exactly this NK. He plays the organisation role very well but it shouldn't detract from other parts of his game. He can be a dangerous runner too.

Although I get what Jon and Stu are alluding to, I just don't get this "one size fits all" viewpoint. You're either and organizing half or a runner. It's almost as if you can't have more than one string to your bow! That's just not true. It depends to a large extent (as Jon points out to be fair) to the personnel around you. Edwards was as successful as an organizing half as he was a running 6. Burrow and Maguire were both runners but had Sinfield as the organiser. For s long time most teams played split halves. There are so many different variations on what a successful half back pairing looks like that I think to write off a pairing without even seeing them is just plain wrong.

Williams can do both roles but he’s more effective doing one or the other I think his talent is diluted doing both roles as he is being asked to do at times.

I don’t disagree re Farrimond he can run however his natural strength is that of an organiser.

In regards something giving I think that will be Smith inside 3 seasons.

Again I disagree Jon. You're cherry picking parts of their career to "prove" a point. Burrow and Maguire Co existed successfully for years before Maguire adapted his game. They were both runners. Edwards was always a good organizing half and played that role often well before any decline in pace.

Shall I take it you now concede that your assertion regarding Dodd/Lomax and Drinkwater/Williams being examples of organization half/ running half combinations was a poor one?

Edwards was paired with running halves when he transitioned to an organiser.

I do think it’s possible to do both but very few can effectively.

I’m sure Farrimond and Smith could pair up in SL but as you say we would need to change a lot of other elements of our play.

Split halves at the moment is certainly not the trend with the most successful teams.

I think you play players to their strengths hence Williams isn’t as effective at Wire as he is being asked to do both roles.

If you ask Lewis to do both he becomes less effective.

Halves do tend to settle in to a first team role as one or the other but not always because their skillset is limited to just being an organiser or just being a runner, it's just that is what is asked of them by the coach. In the case of Harry Smith and this isn't being disrespectful because he's a fantastic scrum half but he couldn't be anything but an organiser because he's just not got that running threat. The same went with Kevin Sinfield as you point out. I would point to Sean Long as a halfback that could do a bit of everything and you could ask him to be a 6 or a 7, to just be an organiser or just be a runner or to do both. I look at Farrimond and see a bit of everything in there but it's very early days. I'm by no means saying he is in the class of Long or will ever reach those heights but I don't see a kid that just has to be an organiser, who will kick us around the field and rarely test the line himself.

Williams came through as a running half, who even played a bit of hooker in the early first team days. I've never felt he's a good organiser and still don't and he's at his best when he's freed up and allowed to play. I always felt him and Harry Smith would've been a fantastic halfback pairing because they really compliment each other.

I agree on Farrimond, I do think his main strength is running a team/game but I do think he's a bit more of an allrounder at this age then either Williams or Smith were. I think their strengths and weakness were really obvious, whereas this kid does a bit of everything. That's not to say I think he's a better player than either of those were at 18/19, it might be that he ends up being pretty good at everything, whereas Smith and Williams have parts of their games that are elite. It's early days.

Will be really interesting to see what Penrith do next year.

They have Cleary for is the number one half in the game but are losing Luai who has been a great 5/8th partner to him.

They have Schneider as backup who I think is very good but his main strength again is as an organising half rather than a 5/8th.

Be interesting to see if they pair them or recruit a natural 5/8th.

Long and Martyn would be a great example of the "overlapping skillsets" that I'm referring to. Sure, each had they're strengths but both could kick, both offered a running threat etc. You can have predefined roles within a team without being limited by it.

Agree re Williams and think that is why Burgess went with Hayes over Drinkwater.

Once Hayes finds his feet he’s a natural half freeing up Williams to do what he is best at, run.

At the moment Williams is doing both roles and his impact is being reduced much in the same way as if we asked French would become less effective if we asked him to run our team.

To be honest, I don't think we're far off being in agreement, certainly regarding Farrimond's main strengths. I just don't think you can instantly write off a pairing based on what their main strengths are.

I do have to take issue regarding Edwards though. He was always a capable organizing half throughout the entirety of his career, not just at the end of it. He played scrum half many, many times for the great Wigan sides very successfully. Didn't he also Play for England, and England schoolboys before that, as a 7?

It’s slightly different but kind of emphasises the point.

I watch Trinity a lot and they run with Gale and Lino at 6 & 7. Both are half backs rather than 5/8ths.

Trinity are so dominant in the Championship particularly their pack and they normally play on the front foot but because they have 2 halves they are not hammering teams in the way they should be because both halves tend to do the same thing and get in each others way they don’t compliment each other because they are both natural organisers.

Wigan at the moment are Smiths team. He is the man, he may not get the plaudits of French but he’s the heartbeat of this team.

Luai is leaving Penrith because he now wants to run a team which he will never get the chance to do at Penrith….all be it the money is a big draw too in his case.

But isn't that due to those respective players skillsets being more clearly defined as NK points out? Williams has never been an effective organizing half and French has always been predominantly a runner. Long's abilities in either camp wasn't stifled by the existence of the other. Neither were many great halves. We could both rhyme off the Thurstons, Johns etc who had both without it impacting on either part of their game.

Now, I'm obviously not putting Farrimond in that company at this stage of his career but it certainly shows the principle.

My initial comment was in regard to who replaces Field now.

If we pair Farrimond as he is at this moment in time with Smith and run with French at 1 I think we will have issues and lose strike.

My point was I don’t think they work now or rather we have more effective ways of solving the issue.

For me Smith and French need to play 7 & 6.

We need to test other options over moving French to 1 before pairing Smith and Farrimond at the current time.

Don’t agree re Thurston he was a great organiser and could pick a pass. His running game not really a strength.

Johns had it all but again played his best when partnered with his brother who was a great foil for him at club level.