OT, but I thought JB seemed to move to 13 late on and that got him far more involved. We definitely seem to be in the mindset that JB was the best 2nd row in the NRL, so that's where he should play over here. Stick him at 13 imo, let him roam and get his hands on the ball most sets.

That's how we bridge the gap. We aren't gonna match them in hard yards, so let's be the opposite. Play to strengths and sign a half decent prop who can make a few yards.

Our prop problem is started by the fact we've no big meter makers in the backs who can bring it out of our 10-20-30 areas. Hull's props and forwards in general were going forward off quick ptb from their backs. We haven't had that all season. We've been missing Manfredi, Gildart and Marshall who make big meters and quick ptb. That's where our problems start and we need good tactics to overcome that and Lam can't provide them. When Hodgson saw the team sheet an hour before ko he must have had a smile from ear to ear.

Once again in a big game team selection was more than questionable. We knew Hull's props would come after us big time so we needed Bullock and Singleton to start. Again in a big game Zac's kicking had to be watched. It was poor from minute one. Lam should have changed kicker 5 mins before half time not 5 mins before the end.

Poor team selection, poor tactics and poor game management led to that defeat and that's down to Lam IMO.

If we want to win trophies then IL/Rads have to start looking for Lam's replacement now, if they've not already.

Bateman has earned the right to play what he sees in front of him but it feels like he’s been restricted since he came back. He was quite off the cuff in his spell in Oz and he showed a side to his game we’ve not really seen. In that last ten mins today he got to show that and Hull couldn’t handle him. Lam is good at talking the talk but needs to start walking the walk and if he does that we’ll see a different John Bateman.

It's clear that the quality of our established and experienced props is nowhere near the level of our rivals at the top of Super League.

When Saints last year boasted Walmsley, Amor and Graham who were all making more than 100m per game and supported by other experienced players it's no surprise they looked so dominant in games.

Warrington have Hill and Cooper who regularly make 100m each game and an international like Philbin to back them up.

Watts might not be quite at the top of his game this year at Cas but he's another quality prop who has been so dominant for a good few years. Hull had Sate and Sao today and Scott Taylor who was missing through injury. Experienced and some real tough metre makers.

Even where teams have experienced players that aren't dominant and big metres eaters they are generally very effective in certain areas. Millington at Cas is an experienced front rower who is the sort of player Ben Flower could have been had he not suffered so many injuries. Solid, consistent and reads the game well.

Our props listed above just don't compare. We've only had one prop make more than 100 metres in a Super League game this season. That was Ethan Havard against Leigh.

We obviously don't have a weak pack. We wouldn't have come top of the league last season, reached the Grand Final and pushed Saints so close that they needed a last second winner. What we have is a pack that seems fairly unique that has an obvious weakness.

Our strength is clearly our back row: Faz, Isa, Bateman, Partington, Smithies, Shorrocks. Not a single one of those players is playing badly right now and 2 of them have been out of position. Bateman might not be hitting the heights but he's still more effective than 90% of back rowers in Super League. Our wide second rowers can make plenty of metres consistently. The likes of Partington, Smithies and Shorrocks don't make big metres down the middle but have their value. They'd be phenomenally valuable to sides that have a big pack.

We don't even have size out wide. We get by without it because Faz, Bateman and currently Smithies are so good at playing above their weight. We've got a good pack overall, but you really have to wonder how good this team could be if it had one or two really top quality props. The sort that could at least be in contention for England honours.

Saints have had Walmsley, Thompson, Graham as an ex-international
Wire have had Hill, Cooper and Philbin
Cas have had Watts
Hull have Taylor and back it up with some good imports
Leeds now have Oledzki

Which of our props is pushing for an England call up? The only one who seems likely is Havard and that's almost certainly in a couple of years time.

It was a marked difference in his performance imo.

For all of Lam's talk of "play what you see", he's not been the guy to bring out the best in JB.

Lams talk of letting players express themselves has to be one of two things-

1-lies

2-they’re ignoring him

Is that mainly as a result of injuries? He was probably given the #13 shirt for a reason. Our SR has been playing at centre so has been playing right SR.

We can cover 1 or 2 of our back line quite comfortably but not 4.

2 weeks ago Hardaker fully deserved to keep the FB spot. French should now move to FB, Hardaker to centre, Farrell or Isa to SR and Bateman to 13. Doesn’t solve the prop problem but fixes up quite a few other issues.

I'm genuinely not sure.

I have a feeling that if we had our 1st choice back row, JB wouldn't be at LF. He'd have Isa there, playing the Partington role.

OT, but maybe the Leigh game is time to try KPP?

At the end of the day 'The prop problem' has been of our own making for years now. Probably going back to SW's early years, by allowing a small mobile pack get away with the hard work in attack, by allowing the backs to drive the ball in one man rugby from deep on 4 of our 5 tackles in a set.

It's boring.
It's old hat.
Its not winning us trophies anymore.

The club have only themselves to blame for allowing this recruitment policy and tactics to continue for so long. Last seasons GF should have been over by half time (but for our brutal line in defence, such was the % possession against).

We’ve got two options to my mind if we want to get better for next season-

1-get some big, no nonsense, hard to pull down middle forwards in.

Or

2-bring Wane back to jump in full throttle regards playing that low risk, high intensity rugby.

We’ve gone half and half since Wane has left. If you want to move away from one style of play and go to another, don’t go half measures by bringing in a head man but keeping the old coaches background team on. Who does that nowadays? We’ve done it because it’s cheap (and that’s fine this past 12 months but not before) Wire are clearing the full coaching team out and bringing all the Cas guys with Powell and likewise Cas are moving the full lot on and bringing a new team in. We’ve also stuck to signing similar style players to what Wane could work with since he left. You can see that whilst the coach is different, the guys making the recruitment decisions haven’t amended who they’re looking for. If they’re not flexible then get the right coach in to work with the players you have.

On the button there I think. My fear is even if Lam is moved on, we take the cheap option in Winder.

Lockers and Tommy are being groomed for the next Wigan coaches job.

Yes it is true.

Furner was sacked in May, Singleton released in November. Sinfield got rid of him and a load more dead weight from Leeds.

I found the Leeds forum thread when it was announced. Not one Leeds fan was upset he was leaving.

He’s played over 200 games in his career. Needs to step up massively.

We also signed him on a 3 year deal - he didn’t even have a club at the time ffs!

You can’t really blame Lammy. Clubb crucially left Wigan light to fight a bigger FC team. Wigan have the nal to damage any team, but lacked the heavy guns to soften them up first. If there is blame to be had, it’s at Clubb. Similarly but not identical, you couldn’t blame Wane for losing the GF after the Ben Flower incident.

It was all there to see v FC the week before, being such a tight game, any slight deviation from that margin could swing the result one way to another.
There was a time when Wigan would go straight into the market and buy themselves out of a dilemma, the likes of Fielden.

There’s no way Clubb makes any difference in that game mate.

He struggles to make 4 carries a game.

And yet despite all this we're a dropped catch away from golden point.

That makes it ok then we have lost yet another big game!

That’s the frustration.

We are still a top competitive side despite our lack of quality props.

As I said earlier replace our props with nearly every other SL teams and we do the double.

How many of our props are off contract in 2022?
I genuinely don’t know but I don’t think that any are so not sure how resolve the issue without deteriorating the quality of the squad in other positions

Clubb is. Clark will leave without game time - his agent has already said he's frustrated about it.

Quote ="Father Ted"Our prop problem is started by the fact we've no big meter makers in the backs who can bring it out of our 10-20-30 areas. Hull's props and forwards in general were going forward off quick ptb from their backs. We haven't had that all season. We've been missing Manfredi, Gildart and Marshall who make big meters and quick ptb. That's where our problems start and we need good tactics to overcome that and Lam can't provide them. When Hodgson saw the team sheet an hour before ko he must have had a smile from ear to ear. Once again in a big game team selection was more than questionable. We knew Hull's props would come after us big time so we needed Bullock and Singleton to start. Again in a big game Zac's kicking had to be watched. It was poor from minute one. Lam should have changed kicker 5 mins before half time not 5 mins before the end. Poor team selection, poor tactics and poor game management led to that defeat and that's down to Lam IMO. If we want to win trophies then IL/Rads have to start looking for Lam's replacement now, if they've not already.'" We have the top metre maker in Superleague and four in the top twenty. https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player-stats https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/club-stats

Quote ="Father Ted"Our prop problem is started by the fact we've no big meter makers in the backs who can bring it out of our 10-20-30 areas. Hull's props and forwards in general were going forward off quick ptb from their backs. We haven't had that all season. We've been missing Manfredi, Gildart and Marshall who make big meters and quick ptb. That's where our problems start and we need good tactics to overcome that and Lam can't provide them. When Hodgson saw the team sheet an hour before ko he must have had a smile from ear to ear. Once again in a big game team selection was more than questionable. We knew Hull's props would come after us big time so we needed Bullock and Singleton to start. Again in a big game Zac's kicking had to be watched. It was poor from minute one. Lam should have changed kicker 5 mins before half time not 5 mins before the end. Poor team selection, poor tactics and poor game management led to that defeat and that's down to Lam IMO. If we want to win trophies then IL/Rads have to start looking for Lam's replacement now, if they've not already.'" We have the top metre maker in Superleague and four in the top twenty. https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player-stats https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/club-stats

I’m quite confident that Clubb has signed an extension and we can’t make Clark move without I suspect using some of the cap.
I think we’re stuck with what we have unless we sign a marquee prop

We are short of 2 or 3 decent props

Anyway Lam says Smithies goes back into the middles so we’re sorted

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"We have the top metre maker in Superleague and four in the top twenty. https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player-stats https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/club-stats'" Stats don’t win prizes

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"We have the top metre maker in Superleague and four in the top twenty. https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player-stats https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/club-stats'" Stats don’t win prizes

Yet again, typical Wigan start to turn it on with five minutes to go and a mountain to climb.

No it doesn't, but some people are going on like we lost to the 86 Kangaroos.