No, its not the case, Noble has flaws, but some of the tripe written on this page of the forum alone means its pointless discussing it because for whatever reason Noble's face doesnt fit.

Ill say this one more time, If we win our next two games, I dont care that we lost to Celtic away or at home to Wakefield, because we will be champions and Noble will deserve the praise for that, as will the players.

IL has done many good things, has he made mistakes, yeah, but nobody will acknowledge them, but let Noble make a mistake and its flame central on here.

I just want us to up our game a little.

I don't dislike Noble or find fault with everything he does. I like to think I've given him his due, and I certainly will if we win the GF.

I can't speak for everyone else on that, of course. But I still contend that we need someone more innovative to take us to the next level.

And would you agree that Wane although Wigan through and through isn't the right man for the job at this moment in time and would be more suited to an assistant position to say McGuire.

Ok, lets take one example. Even if its only my [iopinion [/ithat standards in terms of fitness have slipped, please could you say whether that is an opinion you agree with or disagree with. If you disagree and believe that standards are as high as they ever were in that area, then please say so!

Also, could I ask you please to not describe my statements as "half truths". I am not a dishonest person and am very unhappy at this remark.

I have to say again that a number of pro-Noble people on this thread are embarrassing themselves with needless personal comments and they really should think more carefully before posting.

It is a fact BK, you're right. But surely we would be better placed in the play-offs if we finished higher (I know the bizarre new system reduces the advantage but I'd still prefer to be playing at home this weekend).

I also struggle with watching the team play absymal rugby and embarrass itself in the first half of the season and I don't think that's healthy for the fan base. A lot of people who post on this board are die-hards but I am worried that less committed fans are put off by the rubbish that is served up in the early part of the season. I would also like us to do better in the cup, a trip to Wembley would be nice but we don't seem to ever peak for that competition....

I think its safe to say that these points are going to continue to be ignored....

3rd most tries scored
3rd most points scored
2nd most metres made
Most offloads
2nd most tackle busts
3rd most clean breaks
9th in terms of most penalties given away

Now, I agree, some weeks we havent played well, but this absymal rugby you keep harping on about simpily isnt true this season.

I have expressed my views on Noble on many many occasions and also on this thread so no point covering old ground, but what i find from the stats above if they are accurate that something is going fundamentally wrong given the position we finished in the table and the above stats.

Its Nobles failure put put this piece of the jigsaw into place that has rightfully cost him his position in my opinion and that final piece is the consistency that we crave and have yet to achieve in 3 years under him.

There tends to be 2 poles of performance excellent or dire rarely are we "average", maintaining the excellent while also cutting out on the dire is the key to being a success for the next Wigan coach.

Slightly getting away from the "Noble" debate here Jon but I think that many people seemt o think that other fans of other clubs are watching some kind of scintilating, Mega expansive, throw it anywhere, sod the results lets entertain the crowd Harlem Globe trotter style rugby week in week out.

It simply isn't true!

If it were possible to encapsulate a teams "Entertainment" value and or expansiveness over a season and link that in with it's results to give an overall score I would hazard a guess we would compare Favourably with the majority of teams.

If I had to watch some of Huddersifelds Rugby for example over the season (And yes I have seen probably a dozen + of their games) then I wouldn't say they have been playing a more entertaining brand of Rugby than us, yet their previous lack of success & improvement in results this year has led to an almost hysteria about their performances!

I would say we are a more entertaining Team.

This, as I said earlier, goes for the majority of teams in the League.

Now taking this back to Noble it is where I don't get this "Boring, one man rugby" they accuse him of this season?
It's no different to what every other fan of almost every other club has watched if not better! May be we Expect something a whole lot better but that's a different story and Maybe where the true story lies!

Maybe BN isn't the man to get us to that level but he has certainly provided us with a Better position to take the next step to that level and some people want to give him credit for that whislt others want to criticise him for it.

I would concur in that we have definitely improved in the entertainment stakes this season compared to last, when we really had some dire fare placed before us. My biggest gripe with Nobby is that he is the man in charge of us finishing the league rounds mid table and around 12 points off the pace. This is a fact irrespective of how we go in the coming weeks and no amount of success will make me forget how many league games we lost this season.

Its not one or the other though is it? Have we seen entertaining rugby from Wigan in the 12 games we have lost? Most of those performances were pretty dire so I would say not. Did we play much more entertaining RL in some of the games we won? Yes I would say we did.

So I don't think people can generalize and throw up some stats to say "we have played entertaining RL this season" unless they qualify that with "in the games we won". Same works the other way.

Either the way what will most likely cost him his job is not the entertainment factor but those factors Cruncher listed.

Mind you fewer losses in the league would I expect result fewer complaints about lack of entertainment ! They kind of go hand in hand.

Dave

While I agree we have played some good rugby this year, we have also played some garbage, and while other clubs have also not always hit the highs they also in my opinion have not underachieved in performance as consistently as we have.

Our skills are often poor and like the last few years this has not improved enough in my opinion. While we have played some more expansive stuff we have also come up with some very naive tactics at times including use of subs and selection of game plan, in my opinion this is why we have not maintained the consistency that we need, and I lay that firmly at the doors of Noble, and his choice of support staff.

As i said earlier I do not think BN has failed at Wigan, he has taken us through a very transitional period of the club and laid the foundation for us to kick on, my issue again is that I do not think he is capable of doing that which is why I will be happy to see him go but thankful of his services more behind the scenes than for our on field displays.

Overall we have played some good stuff but...

Individual games like

Wakey at home
Cas at home
Celtic away
Huddersfield at home
Huddersfield away
Warrington away

We put in awful performances playing poor rugby.

I don't mind games like

Saints home and away and Hull KR at home where we have played well but the other team are better.

We have still been poor and playing boring rugby in too many games which is not good enough.

It is about the bigger picture as you say and had we played better rugby in these games we would have an even better bigger picture. Its the reason why Noble still has to go IMO even if we win the grand final.

Other people have responded to this already. I don't think I can usefully add much to the excellent points made except to say that if you are saying you are happy with the way the Wigan team played in a number of seriously below par performances this season then I'm afraid we have very different ideas about Wigan rugby stands for.

I don't expect Wigan to win every game but I do not expect to see a Wigan side regularly playing the kind of desperately poor quality and boring rugby that we saw far too often in the first part of the season.

Well as I said, I know most of us have mind our minds up on Nobby. That is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion.


However, I would argue that in SL you have to play to the structure of the comp.

I accept the slow start was frustrating but as I said then and am saying now, SL (even more in it's current structure) is not about how a team starts, but how it finishes.

If this means experimenting early in the season, resting players where necessary, and in doing so losing games then so be it.


What I saw on Saturday was a team who came out strong, didn't cave in, rather reacted in a very very positive way when Hull KR came back at them, and finished with bundles of energy and application.



Do that against Stains on Saturday and we are in the GF.

Get in the GF and ALL EARLIER FORM IN THE SEASON COUNTS FOR NOTHING.


The point I am making is that to criticise Nobby for poor starting form would be irrelevant in this eventuality.

Sure, take issue with his "style", etc if you must, but don't criticise him for playing to the rules set out in the system.

What you fail to grasp that how you start dictates how you finish. This is a demonstrable fact with only one team having ever won it outside of the top 2. It will still be a fact even if we win the GF this time because we will still have failed to progress from the semi final stage for the majority of times we have reached them. If we win it this time that will be two teams outside of the top 2 winning it in 11 years. The law of averages says it will happen again one day but the play-offs are structured to make it less likely and that has been proved over the last 11 years.



You are not trying to suggest our poor league form early on was a result of Noble experimenting are you?



That could very well all be true. Nothing to do with the other points though.



No it's not because people quite rightly expect good performances throughout the season. What went on has been frustrating to watch and it simply should not be. You will not IMO sustain support and therefore ultimate success if we regularly lose 12 games a season. People will not buy season tickets or attend games if we keep doing that. Not everyone is a dedicated a fan as most on here.



Please don't try and make out we are where we are because Nobby played to the rules or the system. Noble is fortunate we have a playoff system that gives a team with 12 losses a second chance. This was not some sort of master plan of his. He didn't want to lose those games and it's probably the undercooked start to three seasons running that has been the biggest factor in costing him his job. Quite right as well IMO because IL will recognise your position is not the correct one to take.

Dave

Dave O i am not entering a cut and paste fest but :


Your first point is silly. "How you start dictates how you finish"

Complete and utter tripe. It is NOT a fact, it is a deluded opinion.

e.g. A team could win their first 15 games, then fall to pieces and win nothing.


Now you may say it's "more likely" that a team who starts well, ends up finishing well, and I would agree- teams generally don't self combust over a season. However, the fact that they started well is irrelevant, it's how they finish that's important.


IF Nobby had his players playing at 80% (or insert percentage here) through the entire competition in order to save them for the playoffs, th en the point is VERY relevant. I don't know this, neither do you, so to rule it out as a possibility, is again, silly.


Now the one semi-decent argument you make is that people expect good performances over the season. Do they? Which would they rather have? Trophies or performances? (and please don't say "both" as that is not the point being made here as we both know).

You gotta hand it to Nobby. Not many of us wanted him to still be in the job 3 months ago and now look at us. The man certainly knows how to get a team to perform at the back end of the season. Fair play, the club is in far a better state now that when he came. Thanks for everything Nobby!

say what you want about the beginning of the season not mattering much, but even if we'd had a half decent beginning, then if we'd won 2 games in the play-offs like we have we'd already be at old trafford, and we wouldn't have this extra game against harder opposition.

Spot on. Of course the poor start to the season has affected our chances. The current system reduces the advantage of the sides finishing 1st and 2nd but it clearly is not right to say that it doesn't matter that we finished 6th, its obviously still more difficult for a team finishing 6th to win the SL than it is for a club finishing 1st or 2nd.

My sentiments exactly

Absolutely DeanoG, (and if I had my way it would be even harder). However, is it REALLY that much of an advantage to finish higher up the league?

One game?


As I have said, win on Saturday and early season form is irrelevant. That isn't an opinion, that is stating a fact.



You could even argue that the team coming from further down the league will be in a BETTER position for the final as it is "likely" that they will have had a harder route. Are they more "match hardened" than the team who, for sake of argument came first, beat the 2nd placed team and chose the easier option in the SF?

I honestly can't believe that you think finishing mid-table is okay for a club like Wigan, or indeed any club with aspirations to field a great side and entertain big crowds.

However, if what you say is true, then this clearly explains why Noble has been given his marching orders. If any coach went to his chairman, and made a presentation of this sort, he would definitely be collecting his pink slip before the end of the season.

...Apart from Challenge Cup semi-finals...and Super League semi-finals (this Saturday excepted, we hope).

I appreciate Brian Noble's contribution, and wish him good luck for the future, but, whatever happens in the rest of this season, it's time for a change. Too many awful, disinterested performances this season and in previous ones.

Maybe we have played better rugby this season because in the last 2 seasons all Noble had to do was say "give it to Trent" and this season he has actually had to do something different, although he was developing a "give it to Hock" mentality earlier in the season.