This.

Plus everything Saints threw at Souths, they had an answer for it... No Super League side could have lived with Souths last night.

Ha ha how am I'm not putting a reasonable argument forward?

It's a undeniable fact that we didn't win anything last season. In the history books it will say Wigan won nothing in 2013. If you want to talk about what happened in the GF then go ahead but your points are all based on ifs and could have beens. Your right about the LLS but do you not find it strange it's not included in the clubs honours overview - [urlhttp://www.wiganwarriors.com/WContent.aspx?id=30[/url

It's another FACT that Madge took what was a 6th place side to the title in 12 months. If you think Noble under achieved then that's fine but it's all subjective and open to scrutiny My two points are the only undeniable facts.

Like I said IL has a role to play in this as well. He doesn't seem able to talk players around to a situation that really benefits the club. We should have made Richards and Green offers they really couldn't refuse. How do Leeds retain highly rated players but we can't?

Happy for Wane to prove me wrong and if he does I'd happily state so. It's just so far we've regressed from the Madge era.

Madge is probably the best coach in the NRL so However good Wane is he is going to struggle a little in comparison.

He also had and has now a far better pool of players at his disposal.

Some people seem to forget that we also actually lost games under Madge, and some were pretty poor performances- and we blew winning the SL in his last year so not all was rosy.

Wane has done a pretty good job IMO, i can't see who I would want as an alternative - which is probably a fairer way of looking at things rather than some nostalgia trip. Some people probably ache to have Monie or Lowe back.

The one downside for me is still the lack of real size up front - something talked about last year but not really addressed. The return of Flower and Mossop don't really meet that either.

So you give no credit at all for winning the LLS or losing in a GF? For you it's all about winning the prize and nothing else counts? What a tedious view of life.

Do you even bother going to the game? Why not just read the result in the paper if only the result matters? Do you have a similar view on life? Only 'FACTS' matter.

Pity really, I would have thought that a person with your moniker would have been a little more interesting.

(Which particular History books do you refer to? The ones I read tend to be extremely subjective and are about a lot more than a series of dates)

Gareth Ellis, Mathers, Calderwood, Chev Walker, (Baldwinson & Tonks, two highly rated young players) Kyle Amor and I'm sure there are others that I've missed. They've also lost Morgan Smith to Warrington who was one of the best young halfback prospects in RL

Don't start using facts!

You might add - Danny Buderus went back to resume his career in the NRL. Lee Smith went to Union...

I really wished we had been playing Souths in front of a full house with the return of Madge as an extra ingredient............until I watched last nights game

Really? Do you consider Kyle Amor big enough? Mossop is almost identical in both height and weight and Flower is actually heavier at 17 stone! In addition Tony Clubb is the same height and only a few pounds lighter. In fact, of our starting props only Tautai is noticeably lighter (and still the same height) but I really doubt anyone would suggest he lacks impact! If we were running with 3 Kyle Amors and Tautai would you be suggesting we lacked size? Well that's pretty much where we are when we have our 1st choice props available.

I think wanes game plan makes our forwards appear weaker than they are because irrespective of field position we try and go around teams instead of earning the right to spread the ball by doing the hard yards in the middle and winning the ruck. i do think where short a couple of really big powerful units tho

And i was led to believe that this Stains pack was invincible by some Stains "fans"....

Souths were as ruthless and clinical as you would expect from a team coached by Madge..

Souths were good, but other teams have done similar to Saints over the last 12 months - Wire, Catalans, Leeds and us spring to mind. We would have given them a better game, as our defence is much stronger. They scored some very soft tries. The problem with the fixtures was that the NRL's best team of the 3 played SL's weakest one.

I agree, they should have played the team that got hammered by saints in pre season, couldn't beat a twelve man Widnes and struggled past a team that had just been nilled at home by Hull. That would have sorted it!

We'll look a hell of a lot better when Flower is back, but in terms of stated recruitment plans to bulk up after the roosters game the signings on two 2nd rows turned prop don't quite fit the bill. Mossop, although big has rarely played to his full weight, he's more of a solid 5-7m carry find his front type of prop than a scatter all before him prop to bust a hole down the middle.

Clubb however is starting to look like he will play well above his weight.

Mossop, Flower, Clubb and Tautai with support from the other three will be fine IMO.

If a big (and good) prop becomes available I'd hope we'd be in for them but that selection above will keep us in contention.

Souths were very impressive in ability and tactics. Also their self discipline was excellent.
There were one or two push and shove incidents likely to blow but the Souths players just turned their backs and walked away.
No joining in a risking a penalty against them. They weren't hot headed they were very disciplined.
They didn't try to referee the game although they got the benefit of the doubt even when the decisions should have been stone cold in favour of Saints.
I didn't think Saints were awful or anything like that, Souths were just so much better.
Whether Wigan or Wire would have get a more reasonable score I don't know but I'm pretty sure neither would have beaten Souths.

Not having a go here but the only learning from this game is not to try it again. It was like watching Richard Dunn when he fought Ali, or a not so funny comedian dieing on stage.
Didn't even have the benefit of producing a gallant loser, just St Helens on a fools errand.

Pur-lease. Ridiculous over-reaction. There have been blow-out scores in both directions in the WCC in the past (although most recent games have been pretty close), but you have to go back to, er, Saints

in 2003 for an equivalent tanking.

And, as noted here, Souths won their GF by about the same margin. I'm sure the Bulldogs aren't tearing their hair out about how rubbish they are.

We would have got much closer.
Pre-season is pre-season.
You beat a Cats with no half backs - and we all know how hard it is to play without half backs as Saints told us every 2 minutes last year - and a hopeless Salford.
We drew with Widnes, which is better than we usually do, and beat a top rival with a full side out, while we played without our first choice half backs - and we all know how hard etc etc.
You only had to watch the 3 world club challenge games to see who had good defensive structures and balance and who were all over the shop.
It wouldn't surprise me to see Saints miss the top 4, as Leeds, Wigan and Wire are better teams, and Cats could be if Carney fulfils his potential. All 4 of those teams put over 30 points on Saints last year, so it's not as if it would require anything other than the status quo continuing.

Quote ="Lingfield Warrior"We would have got much closer. Pre-season is pre-season. You beat a Cats with no half backs - and we all know how hard it is to play without half backs as Saints told us every 2 minutes last year - and a hopeless Salford. We drew with Widnes, which is better than we usually do, and beat a top rival with a full side out, while we played without our first choice half backs - and we all know how hard etc etc. You only had to watch the 3 world club challenge games to see who had good defensive structures and balance and who were all over the shop. It wouldn't surprise me to see Saints miss the top 4, as Leeds, Wigan and Wire are better teams, and Cats could be if Carney fulfils his potential. All 4 of those teams put over 30 points on Saints last year, so it's not as if it would require anything other than the status quo continuing.'" Of course you would have done better - losing to the mighty Bronco's proves that ... www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pre ... 7249969106

Quote ="Lingfield Warrior"We would have got much closer. Pre-season is pre-season. You beat a Cats with no half backs - and we all know how hard it is to play without half backs as Saints told us every 2 minutes last year - and a hopeless Salford. We drew with Widnes, which is better than we usually do, and beat a top rival with a full side out, while we played without our first choice half backs - and we all know how hard etc etc. You only had to watch the 3 world club challenge games to see who had good defensive structures and balance and who were all over the shop. It wouldn't surprise me to see Saints miss the top 4, as Leeds, Wigan and Wire are better teams, and Cats could be if Carney fulfils his potential. All 4 of those teams put over 30 points on Saints last year, so it's not as if it would require anything other than the status quo continuing.'" Of course you would have done better - losing to the mighty Bronco's proves that ... www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pre ... 7249969106

Quote ="No1 Saint"Of course you would have done better - losing to the mighty Bronco's proves that ... www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pre ... 7249969106'" Broncos obviously suffering from the battering they took against Wigan, were as Souths, nice and fresh from their stroll in the park against Sts took full advantage.

Quote ="No1 Saint"Of course you would have done better - losing to the mighty Bronco's proves that ... www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pre ... 7249969106'" Broncos obviously suffering from the battering they took against Wigan, were as Souths, nice and fresh from their stroll in the park against Sts took full advantage.

Do you have a job in marketing ?

No!!!! He's just an idiot!

Haha.

Booo but you could very well be right.