Quote ="goobervision"The thing that annoys me with this is that from the age of 6 these were the exact sentiments expressed by every single coach I have ever played under. Phrases like "smash em", "rip them apart" and "break them" are not unusual and do people really think that in a top game anyone goes out in a rugby game with words of care ringing in their ears from the coach? I can see the England dressing room or even the St Helens dressing room for the internationals/WCC where the coaches are extolling the virtues of not trying to physically dominate and hurt the other side. Good luck beating the Aussies. Then there's the thug/coward phrases. To me these are used for intended malicious play, Flower is guilty of seeing red and stupidly lashing out twice after receiving treatment that could have easily broken his jaw. Not a pre-meditated attack or a sneaky dig with others around which for me fall into the thug and coward category. You would think, on these forums, that not a single one of us has lost their temper and done something stupid. I have seen players gouge, stamp, flying kick and on one occasion smash somebody over the head with their boots having run on from the side line. It doesn't take a great deal of looking on the web to find examples of simple pre-meditated dirty play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxW2Q63CQSA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj57GvEj2DI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWqvmGddkyw I expect to see Flower get a long ban, Flower will have to live with the sending off which probably cost Wigan the game for the rest of his life. Is he a thug? No. A coward? No. If his stats are anything to go by, that's a yellow card this year before last nights red. Sine Die - don't be ridiculous! www.superleague.co.uk/matchday/player/3237'" There is a HUGE difference between a coach telling his team to physically dominate and smash people and to be reckless and knock people out. A HUGE difference. There's plenty of shockers out there, but I've never seen a player attack the head of another player while he is already knocked out and on his back and unable to defend himself.

Quote ="goobervision"The thing that annoys me with this is that from the age of 6 these were the exact sentiments expressed by every single coach I have ever played under. Phrases like "smash em", "rip them apart" and "break them" are not unusual and do people really think that in a top game anyone goes out in a rugby game with words of care ringing in their ears from the coach? I can see the England dressing room or even the St Helens dressing room for the internationals/WCC where the coaches are extolling the virtues of not trying to physically dominate and hurt the other side. Good luck beating the Aussies. Then there's the thug/coward phrases. To me these are used for intended malicious play, Flower is guilty of seeing red and stupidly lashing out twice after receiving treatment that could have easily broken his jaw. Not a pre-meditated attack or a sneaky dig with others around which for me fall into the thug and coward category. You would think, on these forums, that not a single one of us has lost their temper and done something stupid. I have seen players gouge, stamp, flying kick and on one occasion smash somebody over the head with their boots having run on from the side line. It doesn't take a great deal of looking on the web to find examples of simple pre-meditated dirty play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxW2Q63CQSA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj57GvEj2DI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWqvmGddkyw I expect to see Flower get a long ban, Flower will have to live with the sending off which probably cost Wigan the game for the rest of his life. Is he a thug? No. A coward? No. If his stats are anything to go by, that's a yellow card this year before last nights red. Sine Die - don't be ridiculous! www.superleague.co.uk/matchday/player/3237'" There is a HUGE difference between a coach telling his team to physically dominate and smash people and to be reckless and knock people out. A HUGE difference. There's plenty of shockers out there, but I've never seen a player attack the head of another player while he is already knocked out and on his back and unable to defend himself.

Maybe not but you've seen one hit a player who was held down by two men hard enough to break his cheekbone in two places. It happened right in front of me and my then 12 year old boy and was cynical, sickening and intended to injure. Neither incident belongs on a rugby field. Just for the sake of clarity did you blame and condemn your own coach for that particular incident?

No. I blamed Bennie (who can be a liability and should have walked). The thing here is that Bennie put in a big and very reckless shot in, with intent to hit the head, on a player with the ball. Flower knocked a man out, without the ball, and then stood over him and punched his face. I can't see a comparison, really.

I don't blame TS because Wire don't knock out or have opposition players stretchered off with much regularity as Wigan. It's Wigan vs the rest of SL on this issue, and it's not like the 80s when it could be argued that we were all just sick of the winning dominance.

I agree. He consistently makes wrong decisions and they happen more frequently in bigger games.

there are some serious s on this thread!!

Flower knocked a man out, who had just come in with an elbow/forearm to his face. Hohaia had an opportunity to defend himself with the first punch and, given what he had just done, could well have been expecting a retaliation. That's not to excuse what Flower did after the first punch which was disgraceful but taking initiation of the two incidents to compare what you have said in your post, in that first punch Hohaia had more of a chance to defend himself than what Green had. Green was in a tackle, tackles which happen hundreds of times a game without a punch thrown, but you seem to think he should have been expecting a punch and prepared to defend himself? Does that mean players must go into every tackle expecting to be punched?

I don't condone either incident and don't believe the ban for either will be sufficient and more should be being done to protect players from incidents like these.

Quote ="Supervegan!"No. I blamed Bennie (who can be a liability and should have walked). The thing here is that Bennie put in a big and very reckless shot in, with intent to hit the head, on a player with the ball. Flower knocked a man out, without the ball, and then stood over him and punched his face. I can't see a comparison, really. I don't blame TS because Wire don't knock out or have opposition players stretchered off with much regularity as Wigan. It's Wigan vs the rest of SL on this issue, and it's not like the 80s when it could be argued that we were all just sick of the winning dominance.'" Mate, I don't think you even saw the same incident as the rest of the world. I suggest you go and take another look.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCmbHOYQMRk If you seriously think there is any 'mitigating circumstances' because Green had the ball you're seriously deluded. Both men were on the ground and effectively unable to defend themselves. In Green's case he even has men holding him down! If you're still in any doubt as to the severity of the respective blows to the head I suggest you look to the injuries inflicted as your guide. Neither incident is any better than the other and to argue otherwise based on club loyalties is disgraceful. There is no 'winner' here. Both incidents were reprehensible. End of. And for the record would you care to list the players 'stretchered off' due to foul play...

Quote ="Supervegan!"No. I blamed Bennie (who can be a liability and should have walked). The thing here is that Bennie put in a big and very reckless shot in, with intent to hit the head, on a player with the ball. Flower knocked a man out, without the ball, and then stood over him and punched his face. I can't see a comparison, really. I don't blame TS because Wire don't knock out or have opposition players stretchered off with much regularity as Wigan. It's Wigan vs the rest of SL on this issue, and it's not like the 80s when it could be argued that we were all just sick of the winning dominance.'" Mate, I don't think you even saw the same incident as the rest of the world. I suggest you go and take another look.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCmbHOYQMRk If you seriously think there is any 'mitigating circumstances' because Green had the ball you're seriously deluded. Both men were on the ground and effectively unable to defend themselves. In Green's case he even has men holding him down! If you're still in any doubt as to the severity of the respective blows to the head I suggest you look to the injuries inflicted as your guide. Neither incident is any better than the other and to argue otherwise based on club loyalties is disgraceful. There is no 'winner' here. Both incidents were reprehensible. End of. And for the record would you care to list the players 'stretchered off' due to foul play...

Quote ="Phuzzy"Mate, I don't think you even saw the same incident as the rest of the world. I suggest you go and take another look.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCmbHOYQMRk If you seriously think there is any 'mitigating circumstances' because Green had the ball you're seriously deluded. Both men were on the ground and effectively unable to defend themselves. In Green's case he even has men holding him down! If you're still in any doubt as to the severity of the respective blows to the head I suggest you look to the injuries inflicted as your guide. Neither incident is any better than the other and to argue otherwise based on club loyalties is disgraceful. There is no 'winner' here. Both incidents were reprehensible. End of. And for the record would you care to list the players 'stretchered off' due to foul play...'" The only reason Westwood evaded a red that day was because the play had continued, I think. It was a very cheap shop and a purposeful hit to the face. Disgraceful. The difference (without looking through my primrose and blue specs) is that Westwood was a swinging arm with intent in a moving tackle; Flower's was a cocked back, precise, punch to the face while veering over a prone/unconscious player. Perhaps "stretchered off" was a little extreme, but off the top of my head we lost Ratch in the GF because of a cannonball from Hansen and Laithewaite in the last game of the season after he was taken out from behind by Mickey Mac. There are more players that has gone off/gone down and stayed down for minutes but I don't recall instances right now.

Quote ="Phuzzy"Mate, I don't think you even saw the same incident as the rest of the world. I suggest you go and take another look.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCmbHOYQMRk If you seriously think there is any 'mitigating circumstances' because Green had the ball you're seriously deluded. Both men were on the ground and effectively unable to defend themselves. In Green's case he even has men holding him down! If you're still in any doubt as to the severity of the respective blows to the head I suggest you look to the injuries inflicted as your guide. Neither incident is any better than the other and to argue otherwise based on club loyalties is disgraceful. There is no 'winner' here. Both incidents were reprehensible. End of. And for the record would you care to list the players 'stretchered off' due to foul play...'" The only reason Westwood evaded a red that day was because the play had continued, I think. It was a very cheap shop and a purposeful hit to the face. Disgraceful. The difference (without looking through my primrose and blue specs) is that Westwood was a swinging arm with intent in a moving tackle; Flower's was a cocked back, precise, punch to the face while veering over a prone/unconscious player. Perhaps "stretchered off" was a little extreme, but off the top of my head we lost Ratch in the GF because of a cannonball from Hansen and Laithewaite in the last game of the season after he was taken out from behind by Mickey Mac. There are more players that has gone off/gone down and stayed down for minutes but I don't recall instances right now.

Neither got even a caution.

Whilst Westwood got a 1 match ban to help out England in the WC.

Have you actually watched the link I gave you? It wasn't a moving tackle. Green was on the floor!! Looking through primrose and blue specs is exactly what you're doing. I could equally argue that Flower was responding to an elbow to the face whereas Westwood's was completely unprovoked or that Hohaia was relatively uninjured (hasn't even got a broken nose as it turns out) whereas Green had a double fracture of the cheekbone but all that would be missing the point. Just because one was worse in one way while the other was worse in another doesn't make any difference. Neither is acceptable. Full stop.

As for Ratchford; again you're wrong. In fact you're worse than wrong as you're actually regurgitating things you've heard from other people without any recourse to checking the facts. I've heard his injury used as justification for the '3rd man in the tackle canonball' accusation so many times on the Wire forum it's becoming ridiculous! In fact it was a classic RL tackle (one man high, one man low) as seen thousands of times a season. There was no cannonball. There wasn't even a third man in! He simply got bent over backwards during the tackle. There was no foul play whatsoever as evidenced by it not even being cited, let alone any case to answer, by the disciplinary.

Of course you can't think of any instances! That's because, excepting the normal incidents found in all rugby league, there are very few. In fact ask yourself this; In the last four or five games between our two teams how many Warrington players have been banned for foul play and how many Wigan players? Of course the answer won't suit your 'Big Bad Wigan' agenda so I'll assume that you'll once again ignore the facts (just for clarity a fact is something that ACTUALLY happened as opposed to something you choose to believe happened) and carry on spouting the same tired mantra.

Watching the incident live I was furious with Flower and would quite gladly have seen him sacked. After seeing the incident replayed on TV, however, I have to say I can see why Flower retaliated. Hohaia clearly leads with the elbow into Flowers face with an attempted jaw breaker .... what did he expect in return from Flower a hand shake?

If Flower had gone to the floor (soccer style) clutching his jaw Hohaia would have to have walked. Flower did, however, what I'm sure most people would do he hit the glass jawed bed wetter with a quality punch - and that should carry the standard ban for punching. The ban for the first offence should not be increased because he landed a quality punch - I believe the precedent for this is one match as per Westwoods GF assault last year. I would, however, increase the ban substantially (8 matches?) for the second, disgraceful punch. Equally I would expect the RL to hold Hohaia to account with a significant ban (no please don't laugh ... I know this is the RL we are talking about here) for his attempted jaw breaker.

All round I hope lessons are learned - Flower to control his aggression and Lance to remember don't start what you can't finish !

Watch it again and you will see Flower hit Hohia on the back of the head as he runs past him

Flower started it

Hohaia was actually retaliating to Flower. Flower started it he instigated the whole thing and is entirely to blame.

surely after a public flogging the man should be hung drawn and quartered and the entire wigan team banned for life .....get real. flower will get a deserved long ban mainly because it was a rugby league showpiece

Flower will get a lengthy ban for punching an unconscious player on the floor. If he did that in any game he'd get a lengthy ban. If he'd fractured his cheekbone from that assault he'd probably also be looking at being prosecuted. Doesn't matter who he played for Wigan, Leeds, St. Helens, Hull etc he needs the book throwing at him for that.

Quote ="Starbug"Watch it again and you will see Flower hit Hohia on the back of the head as he runs past him Flower started it'" Yeah, because shoving a player who is in the way while chasing a kick totally justifies this: https://vine.co/v/OAjJjZ0KjTz

Quote ="Starbug"Watch it again and you will see Flower hit Hohia on the back of the head as he runs past him Flower started it'" Yeah, because shoving a player who is in the way while chasing a kick totally justifies this: https://vine.co/v/OAjJjZ0KjTz

Quote ="headhunter"Yeah, because shoving a player who is in the way while chasing a kick totally justifies this: https://vine.co/v/OAjJjZ0KjTz'" It's a pity Flower didn't think to go down like a sack of spuds because Hohaia would have been red carded. The game would then have taken on a different story entirely. Instead he acted like most rugby players would and retaliated. I am not condoning the final punch which was unnecessary and OTT but sometimes in the heat of battle these things happen. I know the incident was different but who would have thought that Kevin Sinfield would have been sent off for head butting? Flower is not a dirty player and so I hope that when all the emotion has died down he will be allowed to serve his RFL sentence in peace to consider his OTT action.

Quote ="headhunter"Yeah, because shoving a player who is in the way while chasing a kick totally justifies this: https://vine.co/v/OAjJjZ0KjTz'" It's a pity Flower didn't think to go down like a sack of spuds because Hohaia would have been red carded. The game would then have taken on a different story entirely. Instead he acted like most rugby players would and retaliated. I am not condoning the final punch which was unnecessary and OTT but sometimes in the heat of battle these things happen. I know the incident was different but who would have thought that Kevin Sinfield would have been sent off for head butting? Flower is not a dirty player and so I hope that when all the emotion has died down he will be allowed to serve his RFL sentence in peace to consider his OTT action.

Quote ="headhunter"Yeah, because shoving a player who is in the way while chasing a kick totally justifies this: https://vine.co/v/OAjJjZ0KjTz'" You have a fitting user name, a swinging arm to the head, to the back of the head, how would you react? No excuses

Quote ="headhunter"Yeah, because shoving a player who is in the way while chasing a kick totally justifies this: https://vine.co/v/OAjJjZ0KjTz'" You have a fitting user name, a swinging arm to the head, to the back of the head, how would you react? No excuses

So Hohaia is justified in charging at Flower to smash him in the jaw, but Flower is out of order for knocking Hohaia out after an off-the-ball attack to the head? What if Lance was a bigger man and had broken Flower's jaw, which incident would be considered worse in that case?

FLOWER MADE THE 1 st CONTACT WITH HOHAIA'S HEAD WHEN HE RAN PAST HIM

So in your opinion that justifies Hohaia sprinting 15 yards away from the play in order to deliberately smash Flower in the jaw.

You me in the head from behind and see what youd get back

So that's ok, but Flower punching Hohaia afterwards wasn't?

So retaliation is OK then? Nice contradiction to all your holier than thou BS...

It was nothing more than a push, Hohaia retaliated with an elbow to the Jaw whilst sprinting in, he's hardly blameless and I'm not surprised he's said he doesn't hold a grudge. Flower was out of order with the second shot, Hohaia and flower were equal up to that point regardless of who pushed who first.

I'd like to point out Hohaia used his forearm, not his elbow. Not that makes it any better. However like any rugby player I would expect Hohaia to have a reaction to being smacked in the back of the head, but what Flower did after that was disgraceful beyond belief.