I thought Sammut came across well in his interview on Wigan TV. Also thought he summarised his current style of play well saying he has all the maverick/off the cuff stuff 'in his back pocket' but these days he's more of a team player and an organiser. Also says he know its important to play different styles at different times.

A classic example for me would be the Million Pound game when Sammut played a very intelligent and conservative game in which he directed the team brilliantly. You certainly wouldn't have recognised the maverick tendencies that people talk about in that game.

True but that's mainly restricted to the loons on the VT.

Agreed, all this talk of him being a creative player/maverick is true but like you say his organisation skills are often overlooked, he looks like he can lead a team round the park, he has plenty of experience and could be a very key signing for us

what if sammut isn't our starting 7 and we start with the super league winning 7.

think thats a fair shout in keeping Sam and getting shut off tommy who has just got a new deal which guaranteres a job after it and off loaded escare as well and maybe a winger.

Isn't that exactly the point? It doesn't matter their relative merits they all get equally lambasted with exactly the same criticisms if they sign for Wigan..

Going round in circles here mate.

My negativity/criticism or questioning of the signing isn't actually at Sammut, for the sake of the club and him personally I hope he's a superstar and does amazingly well when here at Wigan. It's a fantastic opportunity for him, after not really making it at 'lesser' super league clubs he finds himself suddenly recruited by the champs.

My issue is with the club. The recruitment and calibre of player we're signing.

Will I eat my words if Sammut turns out to be a star? No absolutely not. My judgement is based in the here and now, I, like many others in here can only discuss what they know about the signing and what the club needs as we type.

I can't speak for others, but I get the feeling the issue for most isn't really with Sammut at all.

Sorry for going off thread, but Vastman im sorry not one of Wakeys halves offer what Hastings does.

Whilst agreeing slightly with what your saying
Do you not think that ignoring the Signing of Hardaker, Greenwood & the resigning of Gildart/Davies/Marshall/Isa etc. all of which are internationals or juniors that would be sought after by other clubs is being ignored and we kind of portray a negative image of the club because we sign Bullock (Who I think everyone is in agreement is an exciting if yet unproven signing) and Sammutt, plus Hankinson if you want to go back to the end of last year.

We focus on Sammutt and ignore the 5/6 internationals that have been signed/resigned by the club in the last 6months.

This time last year I wrote a Topic about how Wigan get criticism for their lack of signings and we conveniently forget that the Juniors coming through are 12 months older, 12 months more experienced and In my opinion deserve their pay rises (So the difference in say Suttons Wage to Bullock's wage) will be spread across Partington/Wells/Field/Paisley etc. so although we see a downgrade from Sutton to Bullock temporarily actually it allows us to invest in 2/3/4 other youngsters and give them more time.

Gildart is another one - If Gildart on say 60k a year at 20/21 (I'm guessing) is out of contract and is worth 150k to all other SL clubs (And possibly the NRL factor) then Wigan have re-signed him at there or thereabouts that wage or risk losing him. I see these as NEW SIGNINGS
So for me He is a New signing and that extra 70/80/90 k (I'm guessing) needs to come from somewhere - It's come from John Bateman or Sam Tomkins etc.

Same for Tom Davies/Liam Marshall etc.

I think posters focus on what they perceive the negatives to be (I don't necessarily see them as negatives) and ignore the positives and not focus on what is a Much more complicated job of keeping the production line going and investing in that, giving the younger players time to mature and offer them a Progression opportunity through to the first team without blocking their prospects, keeping Senior players and also keeping them happy etc. all within a salary cap

Top line is, I don't think there's many clubs who have done this better than Wigan over the last 10 years? And it must Irk with some that they seem to get criticised for it.

I think keeping holding talent is a good thing, naturally. But the point was focusing on this particular signing.
Two points which come to light;

-I said previously I would sooner have a 17 which featured Williams, Powell, Tommy and Escare (you would assume one would have be dropped to make room for Sammut)
-If Sammut isn't our starting 7, we've signed a 31 going on 32 year old 7 who has never been good enough to make in at a 'lesser' SL club as back-up given game time over younger players who would benefit from game time.

All in all, I don't get the signing.

Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"I think keeping holding talent is a good thing, naturally. But the point was focusing on this particular signing. Two points which come to light; -I said previously I would sooner have a 17 which featured Williams, Powell, Tommy and Escare (you would assume one would have be dropped to make room for Sammut) -If Sammut isn't our starting 7, we've signed a 31 going on 32 year old 7 who has never been good enough to make in at a 'lesser' SL club as back-up given game time over younger players who would benefit from game time. All in all, I don't get the signing.'" Personally I see Sammutt as an improvement on 2 Young Half Backs that IMO won't be at the club much longer (And certainly has Half backs). I look at it this way As Rogues said the other day, We didn't lose a Game with Williams at 6 - Tommy at 7 and Powell at 9 If one gets injured we have a decent back up option, Great - If he forces his way in then he must be playing better than one of those 3 and proving his worth. My main question would be though, what about the other points? Whilst thinking about next year I was concerned that we weren't as strong depth wise as previous years. I then read Rogues Post with 2 x Teams and 6/7/8 players on top of that. Made me realise how lucky we are. Here's 2 threads from last year 1 on the re-signing of Sarginson - Look at how many people were rubbishing the club, the signings, the coach etc. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611558 2 - A Thread pre 2018 Were I defended our squad viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611901 Whilst I think next year may be harder for various reasons Other teams improving Other teams signing some big name/but possibly shorter term risky players And probably more controversially the loss of Wane ( And look at threads around that time slagging him off and how he responded last season) I also keep thinking along these lines How anyone can think Shaun Edwards isn't behind all of this pulling the strings and how anyone can think Shaun Edwards wouldn't do everything in his power to make Wigan even more Successful is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"I think keeping holding talent is a good thing, naturally. But the point was focusing on this particular signing. Two points which come to light; -I said previously I would sooner have a 17 which featured Williams, Powell, Tommy and Escare (you would assume one would have be dropped to make room for Sammut) -If Sammut isn't our starting 7, we've signed a 31 going on 32 year old 7 who has never been good enough to make in at a 'lesser' SL club as back-up given game time over younger players who would benefit from game time. All in all, I don't get the signing.'" Personally I see Sammutt as an improvement on 2 Young Half Backs that IMO won't be at the club much longer (And certainly has Half backs). I look at it this way As Rogues said the other day, We didn't lose a Game with Williams at 6 - Tommy at 7 and Powell at 9 If one gets injured we have a decent back up option, Great - If he forces his way in then he must be playing better than one of those 3 and proving his worth. My main question would be though, what about the other points? Whilst thinking about next year I was concerned that we weren't as strong depth wise as previous years. I then read Rogues Post with 2 x Teams and 6/7/8 players on top of that. Made me realise how lucky we are. Here's 2 threads from last year 1 on the re-signing of Sarginson - Look at how many people were rubbishing the club, the signings, the coach etc. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611558 2 - A Thread pre 2018 Were I defended our squad viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611901 Whilst I think next year may be harder for various reasons Other teams improving Other teams signing some big name/but possibly shorter term risky players And probably more controversially the loss of Wane ( And look at threads around that time slagging him off and how he responded last season) I also keep thinking along these lines How anyone can think Shaun Edwards isn't behind all of this pulling the strings and how anyone can think Shaun Edwards wouldn't do everything in his power to make Wigan even more Successful is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Quote ="Jukesays"Personally I see Sammutt as an improvement on 2 Young Half Backs that IMO won't be at the club much longer (And certainly has Half backs). I look at it this way As Rogues said the other day, We didn't lose a Game with Williams at 6 - Tommy at 7 and Powell at 9 If one gets injured we have a decent back up option, Great - If he forces his way in then he must be playing better than one of those 3 and proving his worth. My main question would be though, what about the other points? Whilst thinking about next year I was concerned that we weren't as strong depth wise as previous years. I then read Rogues Post with 2 x Teams and 6/7/8 players on top of that. Made me realise how lucky we are. Here's 2 threads from last year 1 on the re-signing of Sarginson - Look at how many people were rubbishing the club, the signings, the coach etc. retro.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611558 2 - A Thread pre 2018 Were I defended our squad retro.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611901 Whilst I think next year may be harder for various reasons Other teams improving Other teams signing some big name/but possibly shorter term risky players And probably more controversially the loss of Wane ( And look at threads around that time slagging him off and how he responded last season) I also keep thinking along these lines How anyone can think Shaun Edwards isn't behind all of this pulling the strings and how anyone can think Shaun Edwards wouldn't do everything in his power to make Wigan even more Successful is living in cloud cuckoo land.'" What other points? we used cap space we keep depth and improve contracts. That's totally unrelated. It doesn't need to be so convoluted. We signed a 7 who's 31/32 who's not been able to sustain a spot in SL at any club he's been with. That player will either be a starter or back up, I've outlined the issues I have with both options. Money doesn't come into it, as I've said on multiple occasions I'd sooner not sign Sammut and keep his salary off our cap and feature a team with Williams, Tommy, Powell and Escare in the 17 and wait until the right signing comes along. Alternatively there most be argument to say there is funds available as we officially confirmed we made an offer for Hastings and have a marquee space available.

Quote ="Jukesays"Personally I see Sammutt as an improvement on 2 Young Half Backs that IMO won't be at the club much longer (And certainly has Half backs). I look at it this way As Rogues said the other day, We didn't lose a Game with Williams at 6 - Tommy at 7 and Powell at 9 If one gets injured we have a decent back up option, Great - If he forces his way in then he must be playing better than one of those 3 and proving his worth. My main question would be though, what about the other points? Whilst thinking about next year I was concerned that we weren't as strong depth wise as previous years. I then read Rogues Post with 2 x Teams and 6/7/8 players on top of that. Made me realise how lucky we are. Here's 2 threads from last year 1 on the re-signing of Sarginson - Look at how many people were rubbishing the club, the signings, the coach etc. retro.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611558 2 - A Thread pre 2018 Were I defended our squad retro.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=611901 Whilst I think next year may be harder for various reasons Other teams improving Other teams signing some big name/but possibly shorter term risky players And probably more controversially the loss of Wane ( And look at threads around that time slagging him off and how he responded last season) I also keep thinking along these lines How anyone can think Shaun Edwards isn't behind all of this pulling the strings and how anyone can think Shaun Edwards wouldn't do everything in his power to make Wigan even more Successful is living in cloud cuckoo land.'" What other points? we used cap space we keep depth and improve contracts. That's totally unrelated. It doesn't need to be so convoluted. We signed a 7 who's 31/32 who's not been able to sustain a spot in SL at any club he's been with. That player will either be a starter or back up, I've outlined the issues I have with both options. Money doesn't come into it, as I've said on multiple occasions I'd sooner not sign Sammut and keep his salary off our cap and feature a team with Williams, Tommy, Powell and Escare in the 17 and wait until the right signing comes along. Alternatively there most be argument to say there is funds available as we officially confirmed we made an offer for Hastings and have a marquee space available.

Ok

So seeing as you said :-

"My issue is with the club. The recruitment and calibre of player we're signing.
Will I eat my words if Sammut turns out to be a star? No absolutely not. My judgement is based in the here and now, I, like many others in here can only discuss what they know about the signing and what the club needs as we type.
I can't speak for others, but I get the feeling the issue for most isn't really with Sammut at all"

I thought you were widening the argument about Recruitment in general
But obviously your not? or are you?

So seeing as you said your issue is with the club and it's calibre of player it's signing am I not supposed to respond with those "other points"?
You have either ignored or don't want to highlight the positivity in that we have either signed or re-signed 5-6 other players that are of international or proven super league quality and Youngsters on improved contracts such as Gildart/Davies & Marshall and we should all just ignore that???

You also saying that you can't speak for others but then say you "get the feeling the issue for most isn't really with Sammut at all" - so go on and speak for others.

I've seen a mixed reaction - But to claim Sammutt is somehow the latest in a long line of low level signings whilst not acknowledging what the club HAS done is exactly what I was saying before - People focussing on the so called negatives and using it as a stick to have a go at the club and ignoring anything they have done positively.

In the past there have been posters (I think you were, but maybe you weren't) who keep intimating that something underhand is going on at the club i.e. "the issue for most isn't really with Sammut at all".
Then what is the issue then?

IL has said that we need to make changes impacting on Wages etc. but don't think he ever mentioned that it would be playing staff?
Maybe it's backroom staff? Maybe it's in the Youth development or scouting?

Either way that's not good as it will affect us and I suggest the best way for that trend to be reversed is to get behind the club and for us all to keep putting into the club, supporting it and encouraging others to do the same.

What are you on about at all...

I keep saying keeping existing talent is a positive. naturally.
I do have an issue with this signing, as pointed out numerous times and explained why.
I'm referring to this signing, no other, however I did point out that our recent signings (not re-signings or improved contracts) 3 of 5 have been championship signings (Hardaker, HANKINSON, Greenwood, BULLOCK and now SAMMUT) merely stating the facts.

I genuinely don't know what point you're trying to make. It seems you're looking to form a debate against why I question the Sammut signing.

So your referring to this signing
But then say :-

"My negativity/criticism or questioning of the signing isn't actually at Sammut, for the sake of the club and him personally I hope he's a superstar and does amazingly well when here at Wigan. It's a fantastic opportunity for him, after not really making it at 'lesser' super league clubs he finds himself suddenly recruited by the champs.

[uMy issue is with the club. The recruitment and calibre of player we're signing
[/u"

so which is it?
Just about Sammutt Or about the bit in bold?

If your on about Sammutt then your entitled to your opinion of course, I'm personally on the fence.

However if it is about the club and it's signings in general then don't be surprised if someone responds to that?

The clubs calibre of signing I'm clearly referring to is Sammut.

Ok I get it now

Your making a mountain out of a Molehill

How exactly?

Get a bit silly now.

You say now you have an issue with Wigan signing 1 player

Yet your posts intimate that you are worried about much more than that i.e.
"My issue is with the club. The recruitment and calibre of player we're signing"
Also
"Alternatively there must be argument to say there is funds available as we officially confirmed we made an offer for Hastings and have a marquee space available."
Also
"I can't speak for others, but I get the feeling the issue for most isn't really with Sammut at all."

So if your concern is only relating to the signing of Sammutt then fair enough - But the rest of it makes out that your making out that there's a Whole bigger issue than the signing of Sammutt?

I actually like sammut I think he will bring us more organisation in the half's and he still has the creativity. A good half also has to have good runners around him so he can choose the right pass which Wigan have in an abundance, sometimes at a lower level you don't have that luxury so no matter how good you are you can still look average

As I keep having to say to you over and over I am worried about the signing of a player, Sammut. Why? yet again as I've said before because we have funds available, how do I know this? Because we have a marquee space and we made an offer for Hastings.
I ALSO stated I would sooner see a starting 17 which featured Williams, Tommy, Powell and Escare than drop one for Sammut, that option would have required ZERO additional funds.

And once again, my issue isn't with Sammut, as a man. He's taken a great opportunity and I hope he does well. It's the signing I have an issue with. Please don't ask why I don't know how many other ways I can say the same thing.

Are you sure it's me who's making a mountain out of a molehill?

We have a marquee spot available but don't have marquee money and won't have until the collective public get off their backsides go down to the stadium, buy tickets and go to the games. Those are the cold hard facts.
In 2017 Wigan lost over £600K, the losses in 2018 were even higher.

Exactly. And that is the bottom line. I don't see the problem. We are champions of SL, and can look forward to next season with confidence. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing how Sammut goes; he showed good organising skills and a decent kicking game in the MPG, which is something everyone has been complaining we lack. And we all know that 2019 is likely to be a transitional year with Shaun Edwards arriving in 2020.

not really circles is it??? do you mean i gave you an alternative to your post which suggested Jarrod would be a strating player when in truth nobody knows yet who will start at 7.