Ryan Hampshire, after a little further development with Matty Bowen's help.

Your point?

Quote ="Lippy"Without reading the whole 12pages I don't know if it's already been asked. If lance has only had these symptoms since the GF, why have saints been allowed to play him. I thought the new laws of the game prevented a club playing a player with conclusion. Could lance claim against saints for making him play while showing the signs of concussion?'" from page 6. Quote ="Rogues Gallery"First of all it's sad to see any player have to retire because of injury and good luck to him in whatever career he decides to pursue. He has obviously given it a lot of thought as was seen on the player education section on Boots'n'all last night. I found the Saints statement quite strange in the fact that injury was never mentioned and it seemed quite terse. If they were aware of the situation then why was he allowed to take part in full contact training sessions? Why was he allowed to play? Why wasn't he at least playing in a head guard? Strangely all his stats have been removed from the Superleague site. Coincidence? www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats'"

Quote ="Lippy"Without reading the whole 12pages I don't know if it's already been asked. If lance has only had these symptoms since the GF, why have saints been allowed to play him. I thought the new laws of the game prevented a club playing a player with conclusion. Could lance claim against saints for making him play while showing the signs of concussion?'" from page 6. Quote ="Rogues Gallery"First of all it's sad to see any player have to retire because of injury and good luck to him in whatever career he decides to pursue. He has obviously given it a lot of thought as was seen on the player education section on Boots'n'all last night. I found the Saints statement quite strange in the fact that injury was never mentioned and it seemed quite terse. If they were aware of the situation then why was he allowed to take part in full contact training sessions? Why was he allowed to play? Why wasn't he at least playing in a head guard? Strangely all his stats have been removed from the Superleague site. Coincidence? www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats'"

In the squad is one thing but how many would you be able to play when you count on it 6 maybe 7 at a push including Lomax if fit. Your dependant on players developed else were for props, 6 and 7. You have let go your best talents in the last 10 years and neither returned. Which is a pity for the game as they are now replaced by overseas players or players from other sides. We could see a fully fit squad and potentially 10-11 Wigan developed players in the side.

As for ST replacement it was Bowen who is now replaced by Rocky who was not quite ready for the position last season. See we plan things we know when certain things happens. If Sam does not comeback then Rocky has his position covered. We do not need to panic as we believe in our youth players our 1-17 is mainly Youth developed players now which in that i now include Rocky as Bowen is now coaching him according to Wane.

Instead of begging a side for a FB we have an issue who do we have on the bench and who potentially of Williams, Rocky, Powell and Logan Tomkins which one will leave potentially. Good development with great planning works well.

Our first choice 17 would see Lomax, Makinson, Percival, Swift, Roby, Greenwood, Thompson, Savelio and Richards all come through our academy. If you count Wilkin who was signed as a kid and came through our development system that's 10 out of 17.

Your last sentence is spot on. It's development and planning that's allowed us to be current champions, have our 19's 2nd in the league and can afford our ground. Cheers!

According to the RFL Hohaia passed all cognitive head tests allowing him to play and that they have no record of him reporting to them that he has been suffering from concussion,which if he has been suffering from those symptoms he or saints should surely have reported it either way we all hope he has a healthy retirement

Sorry squad was an error should have read first 13 my mistake if its Wigan then it would be

Rocky, Josh, Gelling (if your going for Wilkin} Burgess, Williams, Lockers, Faz, Joel Tomkins, Dom Crosby, Mcilorum, Mossop, Sutton, Thornley (if ever fit) and choose from Powell or Logan for sub spot.

What i find funny this season we are a point behind and we have been awful at best. Standard of SL is poor atm. Its a good thing that Burgess is off to the NRL as we would be losing Manfredi and he is looking the real deal now.

Thornley wouldn't be ahead of Sarginson.
Gelling was 22 when he signed for you. To suggest he came through your academy is absurd.

Thornley for me is a better defender than Sarginson he has struggled at times and Thornley when fit has played well in the big games. Especially in 2013 but like Lomax is never fit. Like i said your having Wilkin who was 19 or 20 and played for HKR so he was hardly a club trained player through the youth system.

That is interesting as it only leads to 3 logical conclusions.

1. He has retired to let Saints bring in a FB and the injury is a smokescreen

2. He had not told anyone and put his life at risk

3. Both Saints and LH knew about it but kept it quiet.

Either way the if that is the RFL position it does make you wonder how easy the tests are to pass if its 2 and 3.

Slightly off topic but it was reported in the Rugby League bible (Manchester Evening News)

on Wednesday that Thornley is now weighing in at 109 kilo, that is some weight for a centre.

Quote ="WiganBurt"... crikey, the st Helens reporter seems to think they have all the answers already... www.sthelensreporter.co.uk/sport ... -1-7236515'" Here's hoping when the GF incident is proven to not be the cause of LH's retirement Flower sues them for all they're worth.

Quote ="WiganBurt"... crikey, the st Helens reporter seems to think they have all the answers already... www.sthelensreporter.co.uk/sport ... -1-7236515'" Here's hoping when the GF incident is proven to not be the cause of LH's retirement Flower sues them for all they're worth.

You miss the bit where:

A) Saints fans say the injury is caused by a single blow as its concussion
B) LH says he's been suffering since after he started playing again
C) He's been in full training and played a number of games

Kind of leads to the conclusion that he didn't have a problem at the start of the season nor a few games in. The single blow can't have come from Flower and if it did then Saints medical staff aren't competent if they missed this or Saints have been actively covering up (as you write).

That would be £0 then.

BBC website 15 April 2015 - Lance Hohaia: St Helens half-back hints at NRL return. In the article LH says "I haven't made any definitive decisions on the future just yet."

Two weeks later he has to retire immediately saying “I have been experiencing recurrent post match concussion-type symptoms since returning to play" (RLW website).

Concussion is very much a hot potato in the rugby world at the moment yet LH is reported as touting for an NRL contract, presumably at the time of suffering "recurrent post match concussion-type symptoms since returning to play"?

Odd story this one.

I agree, and thats why i have not commented on it... There is something very odd about it.

I overheard a brief discussion Friday night about something along the lines of because he's bowing out injured before the end of his contract, at least some of the tax he owes will be written off (or even refunded). Something to do with foreign contract law. Does anyone know whether this has any legs - or did I overhear nowt more than a couple of conspiracy fruitcakes?

In all probability I think it's likely down to what happened in the grand final, however I don't want to see Flower persecuted any more, as he's served his time. Not to mention, the lad has to live with this for the rest of his life and you have to feel for him somewhat, to know that one moment of madness is looking like defining his whole life at this point.

It's worth noting for the people that are asking why he's been playing with a concussion, that a concussion is not what his claim is, but that he has post-concussion syndrome which is different. If anybody followed wrestling around 2005 then they might remember that Christopher Nowinski suffered a concussion after somebody landed on his head. He carried on wrestling for a few months afterwards but then had to retire too due to post concussion syndrome that would not go away. It's not always immediately apparent and in rare cases it can indeed be permanent (even though somebody earlier said that it couldn't). He's gone on to write books on the matter that helped with the sudden concussion awareness within WWE and the NFL.

Anyway, I hope Lance recovers from this and can enjoy his retirement. I feel like he's (so far) been exemplary in his handling of this whole situation and I'd like to think it won't go any further legally and I hope both men are able to find peace with this incident and can move on without it casting a shadow over the rest of their careers and lives.

Excellent post mate.

15 pages of bitterness, lies and accusations and then this. Word perfect.

And then you add to it with another accusation! Everyone would be wise not to comment further until the truth behind his retirement and the silence from Saints is known.

Nowhere in my post did I accuse anyone of anything. I simply agree with the probability.

Mate, you can agree or disagree with the probability all you want. That, of course, is your prerogative. However, at the time of writing, there are no grounds, medical or otherwise, to support that viewpoint and the fact that someone else has posted something similar to your personal viewpoint (a post which contains inaccuracies may I add) doesn't justify your previous post.

There are some contentious views on this thread and many that are unnecessarily weighted in favour of one side of the argument or the other. That's normal for these type of forums. Posting "15 pages of bitterness, lies and accusations and then this. Word perfect." puts your own posts right in amongst them though, but as long as your including your own posts in that assessment I have no issue with it.

As to the Reaper's post itself; it was an excellent addition to the debate and well balanced in tone. The sort of post I wish there was more of on these boards. It falls down on a couple facts (IMO of course) and I'll address these separately in a direct response to his. I do feel you do him a disservice though posting as you did. Agree, by all means, but let's not keep bringing it back down to playground squabbling. There's more than enough people willing to do that already!

It was always going to come down to that. I think Saints/Lance Hohaia should have quashed it if they don't know for sure (Or maybe they knew what would happen if they were as vague as they were?). Simply saying what they did opens the door for all of this, and if it turns out not to be the case, they're going to look daft. Ian Milward actually wrote in Sporting Life that Hohaia has retired because of the punches in the GF.

To be fair, Ian Millward doesn't know the difference between his own ärse and a hole in the ground most of the time.

I don't agree. There is no bitterness or accusations or lies in my posts. Simply an opinion that it's likely that Flower had caused the problem Hohaia now has.

Compare that to some of the other posts on here which include accusations of him making the injury up, wanting to get out of his contract, saints wanting rid of him to sign anew full back,etc. Thats what I meant by lies and bitterness.