either cas, quins, wakey or salford to go
none will be missed

But you can't do that fairly, Dave. As I've pointed out before, no NL side is going to get the 10k attendance point, for example, or the $4m turnover point. I think it's fair that those two criteria have been reduced to 2.5k and £1m, respectively. The other criteria are broadly similar anyway - stadium, youth setup, financial stability etc. Playing strength is covered by the requirement for a final appearance (you can't expect a Championship club to compete with an SL club).

If we took your system on board, no Championship club would [iever[/i get promotion, and SL would become a closed shop.

The NRL works that way. The only time new clubs come in ius when the league is expanded. What we want is a higher standard all round and by putting the bar as high as posible it will will encourage NL clubs to get better. Whether that's realistic to expect or not is another matter

I don't think it is realistic. Without the threat of being moved out of SL, I don't believe the likes of Salford, Wakey, Cas (and possibly even Saints) would even be thinking about new stadia, for example.

What I'm saying is that the threat of relegation can only come if NL clubs sort themselves out, put a strong case forward for a license and give the NRL a decision to make. That's what the franchise system is supposed to do. If clubs are resting on their laurels because there's no threat of relegation, the NL clubs must take a share of the blame

I don't have a problem with that. Who judges whether Championship clubs have reached the bar though? Thankfully - not the fans (or some fans on here) of current borderline SL clubs because very few of them will admit that Widnes are better placed than they themselves currently are. The RFL know differently and will take that decision in March. I'd prefer P&R - just from a sporting principle and i accept franchising should steady past turbulence. I just wished the whole thing wasn't so vague and messy.

Salford wont be demoted, fact. They've signed some decent players, they've competed against the top teams, okay they've had their batterings, and their new stadium is actually being built. Much Further down the line than either wakey or cas.

Quins wont get demoted simply because of the whole rugby league expansion.

For me its between Wakey and Cas, I just hope that we could bring two NL teams up so that we could have a league of 16, so neither would have to go down. Wakey and Cas are having to put a lot of signings on hold, as they need to pour as much money as they can into their stadiums, much like salford have done.

I cant see both stadiums being near completion or even being close to being built before next year. In all honesty i think if both Cas and Wakey are to stay up, they both will have to play under the same roof, or even under the same name.

mate of mine who is a leigh fan reckons its not as cut and dry - between widnes and toulouse apparently. i was surpised by toulouse but apparently they are eitehr partially or fully exempt from the checklist/scoring system thing

Both clubs have already come out and said that they won't even entertain the idea of a groundshare

They have been trying to expand in London since the 1930's and it still hasn't worked. Wigan Highfield became London Highfield. IIRC there was another club in London in the 30's .

I would be very disappointed if another expansion club was brought in so soon. I'm generally in favour of the expansion idea, but we need to allow Crusaders to get established first.

If it was just about the stadia, then Leigh and Widnes would be in SL, and Bradford and Leeds would drop out. No covered away stand, poor toilets, poor food and drink outlets that don't cater for big crowds. Leeds should offer so much more as a top team.

I think there is a very simple solution. Force Wakey n Cas to ground share or merge or kick 'em both out as their councils have (in as many words) said there will NOT be 2 stadiums permitted for construction. I think a "West Yorkshire Wildcats" or similar would be a good idea as most of the players that there isn't room for in the new team will be picked up by the new entrants or other SL teams such as Salford, Quins and Crusaders.

Then the new team would be a simple one. The only team which currently qualifies is: Widnes; so get them in and then give the expansion teams their last 3 years, see where it goes and if it suffices then keep them in. IMO if they hadnt improved after their move to the North of Wales I would have been saying kick Crusaders out simply for the fact they're only a very slight expansion on Widnes now but as it stands they have more rights to a place than Catalans and Salford (performances) at the minute.

Fortunately, performances are only a small part of the criteria.

Imagine us being forced to merge with the Skints......Or Dire with Widnes....Or the Whino's with Bradford......Or Hull FC and HKR....And i think you will answer your own question!

I am saying "if they want to stay in SL" as it looks like only one of them is going to be able to stay in and they are refusing to share a ground. We wouldn't be forced to merge with Saints or any of the others as we wouldn't need to. I understand your point and I agree i'd hate it but the point is that if they will both be without SL rugby its whether its an option they're willing to take or not. However, on a different note, if they told Wigan that they could only stay in SL if they groundshared with Leigh or with Saints in somewhere like Billinge or Orrell (midway between Wigan and Saints centres) then I would be more than happy if it was the only way to stay in SL but only if it was THE ONLY WAY. haha

Totally agree on the groundshare idea.......After all, we already do it with our rather annoying girlyball 'friends'.
It was Wakey that killed that idea with Cas - No idea why though?
I was referring solely to a club merger between Cas and Wakey. Will never happen, under any circumstances. And i cant blame them for that.
If it was us, i'd rather watch a Wigan team play Sunday league RL on the local park than ever be a part of a St Helens merger. Who wouldnt (from both sides)?

Mergers never have and never will work. Given the current financial situation i'm suprised they didn't entertain the groundshare idea but their choice i suppose. I'd loose both to be replaced by Widnes and Barrow, good job for them it's not up to me.

Probably an argument over how they both want to play Sundays ha

Not read all this thread so forgive me if this has been said already:

Is there any other sport where being any good at the game mattered so little, all the franchise system sems to revolve around is how shiney is your ground and where in the country are you based.

There is a real danger that the game could be ruined beyond repair by both expansionism and striving for unrealistic investment in facilities that no one will use.

My points are: -

Widnes are looking nailled on for a franchise, yet there playing record over the last 3 years has been at best patchy in a league that if they have such a great set up they should walk all over. They seemed to target the NR cup in the 1st year, won it with loanees then sat back with a cigar because that was the box ticked. Surely this can't be the best way to conduct a valid bid fpr promotion.

Don;t get me wrong I thig Widnes will add to SL but the way the criteria is achieved leaves a little to be desired.

Most think the expansionist clubs are safe, Catalans I agree should be, good crowds, genuine acceptance of the game in perpignan and had a (this year apart) good performances in the league / cup.

Quins and crusaders I'm not too sure about. A crowd of 1100 cannot be acceptable, Every time I've been to quins there has been such low attendances its almost embarassing and the general interest in the side in the community seems to be almost nil. Crusaders lost there expansionist tag when they moved 20 mins from warrington / widnes so maybe it'll be them to go..

Big difference between merging and just groundsharing. Of course they'll never merge, but groundsharing makes sense - personally I'd prefer sharing with Saints rather than Lactics - not only would the pitch not get ruined, but it would be easier to arrange fixtures without interference.

quite right Geoff

I really dont see their problem to be honest. Both were moving to new locations just off the M62 a junction apart why cant they share 1 stadium? It's ridiculous. To be honest if i was one of their fans and someone said to me "hey you can have a brand new purpose built RL stadium but you have to share it with a team right next door" then I'd say "hell yeah we need that" not moan about it.

I can't believe nobody is even mentioning Hull KR and Bradford.

Hull KR - £3 million in debt. A hole of a ground. Very few youth players coming through (of their best 2 young players in the 1st team at the moment 1 is from Wigan and 1 from Cas). They have good away following and good finishing position last year going for them. They have also made the play offs this year.

Bradford - Their stadium is nothing more than a modified quarry (and by modified I mean they added steps), very little of it is covered. On the field, they didn't make the play offs last year and wont this year. Their attendences have fallen dramatically over the past 18 months aren't that much higher than Cas at the moment. Youth... not that great. Steve crapbanana seemed loathed to give youth a chance and stuck with the ancient aussies and ex national league players.

Wakey - Hole of a ground (not even a hole that they own) no chance of building a new one in time, a director who has an IVA, and were late paying their tax bill. On the field, they made the play offs last year and were academy champions!!!

Cas - Ground not good enough (but at least its a place that people seem to like coming to unlike Hull KR), the stadium won't be done in time but at least it is progressing (watch the sky match V Leeds on friday for updates on the new ground). On the field they made the playoffs last year and IMO are one of only 2 teams that can grab 8th this year. The squad has loads of Cas academy products in it, away at Hull KR where they only lost in the last second of the game there were 6 cas academy products in the team (would have been 7 if Owen was fit). Only Wigan and possibly Saints can compete with that. The finances of the club are also good comapred to most others.

For what it's worth I agree with most people about Quins, it would be nice to have a team in London but it aint working. Move then to Milton Keynes. It worked wonders for Wimbledon FC crowds!

Tooting and Mitcham had a team in the forties I think.

I am also surprised that nobody seems to tip Hull KR to leave. I have never been there so don't really have a strong opinion on the place, but if you are trying to create a league with geographical spread, I fail to see how you can have two of the fourteen clubs coming from the same city.

As for Widnes, whilst the ground is fine, the town itself is a fearful dump. After a couple of visits in recent years, I am certainly not looking forward to going again. On the other hand, the rugby league side really is all the town has to shout about, so perhaps it will do the place some good to get back into Super League.

However if it was up to me I would get Toulouse and Barrow in, partly to expand the game, and partly to kick on in France and give Catalans a derby to get excited about.