I was looking forward to seeing whitehead.

I think Joel is showing signs he will be a real handful next year with that big hand off he has and his athleticism. The four nations will do him and Wigan good as he's getting good game time in such a intense tournament

He's got a lot of improving to do to get to the level he was at before he left. He looks slow and clumsy to me. Offered very little going forward and has missed simple tackles. He just doesn't look ready for this level just yet.

A good pre-season and there's no reason he can't get back to that standard he was at.

I don't think Joel was bad, he was steady and worked hard. I'm more concerned at the lack of impact by Sam. After a season in the Nrl I was expecting him to take more of a lead, for our supposed superstar he was very quiet.

Sam has gone backwards IMO since he went the NRL.

I wonder if we'll get the same criticism of Clark and Ferres today for their penalties?

And again, three games, and the only pass that Charnley got from Watkins was when Watkins was in touch.

On the game, NZ shield their catchers much better than we do. Hall should perhaps have scored but that was a brilliant tackle by Tommy Leuluai, one he really had no right to make. Fine margins but we just don't seem to have the composure to win close games.

However it's a young side that should get better and it's far better than the England Tony Smith coached Leeds / Saints fiasco of 2008.

Graham was the player of the tournament for me,worlds best front row by a distance i would say.

O'Loughlin and Sarginson were excellent today. Joel again did nothing to warrant his selection. Sam was disappointing for me, where has his flair gone?Smith is not an international scrum half. He payed better last week but today his organisation and kicking were poor. I was disappointed with Whitehead after bulling him up. Clark and Ferres did give too many penalties away.

Glad it wasn't just my Wigan bias seeing that today. I thought Joel had his best game back in league by quite a distance and gave a glimpse of what's to come (hopefully).

I thought the supposed weak link of the second row was pretty good today although I do feel Ferres has been short of his best and doesn't suit that bench role.

Daryl Clark worries me......at club level! Wire have got a star of a player there but if I was him I'd be looking to get to the NRL in the next couple of years. His game has a couple of rough edges that need smoothing but if they are then wow, what a player.

To be fair to Whitehead it's been a long time between games. It's always the problem, you have a squad but you can't give them all match practice. Hence, they have an amount of rust to shake off but no time to do it. Add to that he's making his debut in a must win game and it all adds up to pressure.
Disappointment of the result aside, my biggest frustration is that we have a group of players to get excited about but despite the excellence of this comp so far there is no recognition of international RL.

Your pack next year is starting to worry me tbh. The Backrow of tomkins, Farrell and lockers is prob best Backrow in super league. Add to that the new guy from wakey, Bateman and larne Patrick (will he be prop or secondrow?).

The good thing about our pack is that it's got improvement in it. I think guys like Tomkins and Bateman can kick on a level as can lads like Crosby, Clubb and Pettybourne. The signings of Tautai and Patrick are shrewd as well and both will add a line breaking ability. Mossop to come back in too and Flower to come back mid season will add to the side.

Out of them all Bateman is the lad I have high hopes for both for us and England.

Agreed. He's just outstanding and I don't think the will ever be a prop of his kind ever again. He can ball play, he does the hard yards, he tackles, he's aggressive and does long mins.

He's easily amongst the best 5 players in the world for me.

TBF Adam Blair threw an awesome no look pass in the second half, I was pretty impressed with that.

Graham puts his body on the line so many times when he takes the ball to the line and passes. He commits the edge be to the point he's getting hit after it's gone.

I know he's a saint and I'm prob biased but he's just a freak of a player.

I feel for Graham so much. He's a warrior and an inspiration and the game just keeps kicking him in the guts! The bloke couldn't win an argument through no fault of his own. He's the best prop in the world yet it seems at the end of every big game he plays in he's left either an emotional wreck heaped on the floor or he's losing the plot somewhere chasing refs or throwing medals in the crowd.

One day he's got to get a break and when he does I'll be made up for him. If it comes in an England shirt then all the better.

I think some of the criticism of Smith is unfair he's been ok, he's never going to skip round defenders and make many breaks but he's given England shape and control. Widdop has been the big disappointment for me he was billed as the player whom would add spark the England midfield but he's been the invisible man in this tournament. if Johnson was in the England side we'd have won that game comfortably IMO.
England's main problem though throughout the tournament has been their line speed . They gave NZ far too much space, especially close to our line.

Full credit to both teams though on a classic test match

I think England have at least 2 of the best props in the world in Hill, and Graham, and George is up there too. It's such a shame we didn't have Sam Burgess, Roby and Westwood available though.

I said the same about Widdop last night. It looks nice the fact he can skip past the odd man but there's been little substance to his play. He needs to demand the ball more and direct the play.

Fully agree about the line speed. It's been an issue in all three games and needs addressing. We've missed Mickey McIlorum in that department IMO. He sets the tone for others to follow at Wigan and as much as I don't want to get in to a debate about him as an international player he would have been invaluable on this trip.

Smith is great in a very strutchered system that Wigan play where he knows his role. That's why he's been a success at Wigan more than saints and Salford but when that structure goes out the window he struggles.

I've never seen widdup play well ever.

The squad needed a warm-up game IMO. The last time England played was the WCSF and since then new players have come into the system, we had a new half-back combination and two hookers making their international debuts. We have done it before with these tournaments where we have a dodgy first performance against the "minnows" then by the time we've hit our stride we're out.

We did very well with a yound squad, and ATEOTD we were a 50:50 VR decision and two conversions off the post from being in the final. But the bottom line is, once again, we are 3rd in a 3 horse race (slightly disrespectful to Samoa but there are still only 3 "elite" RL nations).

International RL really needs to be sorted out. The aussies seem to be able to pick and choose when and who they play, SL has now got a more congested fixture calendar than ever which has put a stop to mid-season fixtures and too many fans can't put club loyalties to one side and would rather moan about why X is in the team over Y than simply getting behind the team. The 3 test series against NZ over here should be excellent but there's no opportunity to capitalise on international RL's popularity when we have 3/4 games a year. The so-called "legacy" from the WC never materialised. The RLIF need more power and need to instill more integrity into the game, starting with one set of rules, neutral refs and a fixture calendar that is laid out years in advance, with teams being told where they are playing and not letting player's unions pull players out because they might be tired.

Regarding Smith, I got what I was expecting from him, plenty of talking, consistency and kicking game. I was expecting the flair to come from Widdop and Tomkins, that never came and that's what has disappointed me with out creative play. We have the wingers to score tries, we just didn't get them in space enough.

I can't believe the criticism that Widdop is attracting. If people can't see the improvement since Rangi Chase has been replaced then they are blind.

However it's always been my view that Sam Tomkins is England's best half back. For next year's games I'd like to see Sam in at SO or SH with Lomax or Ratchford in at full back.

A lot of people on here have said the same regarding Sam, Armchair coaches, and I'm including myself in that. The fact is though, he's not played halfback since halfway through the 2010 season.

Brian Noble was reportedly trying switch him to Fullback, Madge played him at FB, Wane, McNamara, Elliott & McFadden all see him as a fullback. They can't all be wrong can they?

No definitely not wrong. Agreed.

Full back was the right move at that stage of his career. Moving back to the halves just like Darren Lockyer did is the right move at this stage. It will prolong his career anyway. Getting mullered at Full back in the NRL week after week and hardly getting a decent pass worth the name off Johnson, can't be much fun. Time to come home Sam - just like Joel and Lee.

I'm not so sure. I was of that opinion and i have been of that opinion regarding Hampshire but I think it's because of the 'old' way of playing RL with a traditional 6 and 7. It seems that most teams play quite structured with the full back being a more off the cuff linking/running player. A traditional 6...

I think at the end of the day you want your best players on the ball as much as possible but you also want them out of the firing line defensively. I see fullback as that compromise now

I think moving Tomkins to 6 would actually benefit our attack because having a genuine running threat in the midfield causes doubt in the defence and frees up space for the centres and the FB linking into the line around the back. At the moment Smith and Widdop offer no running threat, and our 2nd row lacks the punch to attract defenders so the opposition defenders can concentrate on marking Tomkins and the England centres because they know that's where the attack will go. I also don't think Tomkins returns the ball that well from FB these days, the more I see him the more I think he's a HB.