Really hope Widnes get back to were they belong.

Cas out, Widnes in.

Its all crap. Promotion and relegation is the only fair way which rewards clubs for doing well imo. That way any club that gets relegated whether it be a new club or an old heartland club they get the chance to get back up quickly. They should reduce the playoffs back to a reasonable 5 or 6 and bring back relegation, that way theres excitment at both ends of the table until end of the season and we dont get no crap teams limping into the playoffs for a good shoeing.

But inevitably the promoted team get relegated because they can't build an SL quality team in time for the start of the season.

Exactly right. Cas & Wakey have had 4 years to get their acts together, it's not the RFL's fault that they've failed to do so.

How are Celtic and Quins considered above Cas and Wakey.....as expansion shouldnt matter to be honest when it comes to scoring as it gains you 1 point. Cas's academy should negate that 1 point compared to Celtic and Quins as they are good and have been for a while.

Would love Widnes but not sure as they have been average on the field.

Ideally Out
Wakefield
Cas
Crusaders
Quins

IN
Widnes
Barrow
Halifax
Toulouse

Gives the comp a real shake up cos its gonna get boring playing the same teams every season.

Why do the super league give out 4YR license if expansion takes longer?

How can celtics score have gone up when they have changed stadium once already(which they dont own) and changed the name once already.

Will they be called chester next year and play at airbus fc stadium?

Because existing Championship clubs already have the basics (such as a youth system, a fan base, a marketing presence) in place, new clubs are starting from scratch (so, for example, if they start up local Under 8's teams, they take ten years to produce their own first team players).

Quins now have an excellent youth structure which is supplying a lot of their players, but it all takes time. Amateur and junior RL is booming in London now, primarily due to Quins' good work down there - in fact, my son's college, in Surrey, will be running a team for the first time ever, from next year (he's on the team!), and the Quins club are providing coaching support for it.



On that, I'm in complete agreement.

I see what your saying, but if they need time to structure a youth system, why can't they put them in the championship with a view to a licence in 4yrs time ? I think they done that with the other french team in the championship.

If they had put this in place when the the application was due 3yrs ago, we would then have some sort of idea if the likes of celtic would work.

Ok, this is how I see the whole system;

Expansion clubs do seem to be immune, but we do have good and bad examples of this. Catalans have done very well since they came in, with play off appearances and a cup final appearance to their name already. They've shown what a pro-active club can do when given a chance. They've replaced the imports with French players and I believe they are very close if not meeting the quota restrictions set in place. Harlequins are at the opposite end of the scale. They've been around, in some form, for nearly 30 years now and barring the recent homegrown talent "explosion", have done next to nothing for the game, both on and off the pitch. They've even lost the "good day out" factor that they had when playing at Griffin Park, which had local amenities which seemed to be designed for rugby league fans. Low crowds weren't noticed as much at Brentford, because you were usually too totalled to know what was going on (that might have just been me though).

Crusaders are a different matter and I think they are halfway between Quins and Catalans at this point in time. Considering they're only 4 years old (although some may argue they're less than a year old), they're not doing too badly as a whole. Of course they're filled with imports, have no youth structure and are an anti-expansionists dream. But having said that, 4 years ago, I could have been talking about Catalans there.

Expansion clubs should be given a 6 year licence but should be given a much tougher entry criteria (scrapping the point for no team within 20 miles for a start) to make sure they are a viable business. If after 6 years there is no youth structure in place and they're basically failing as a club (see London BroncoQuins) then they're booted out, but only if there is a team in a lower division more suited to a franchise.

Only youth prospects should have a "wait and see" attitude when it comes to franchising, as there is no way of telling either way what it will do, but if the system is in place, then you've got a hell of a chance of making it a successful one.

Now for the other teams, the so called heartlands teams who the anti-expansionist believe should be immune to relegation.

Well I'm sorry, but they should have much tougher regulations heaped upon them. If you've been around for 100 years, are performing poorly on the pitch, have a poor youth structure, poor business structure and poor facilities, then you should go too. Established teams (including those who have passed their 6 year expansion franchise) should be based on a 3 year franchise system and whereas new clubs had difficult criteria to get in, these should have difficult criteria to stay in.

Wakey and Cas are both been tilted for relegation because of their poor facilities, but with both clubs (most notably Wakefield) the problems run much deeper than a bad stadium. Poor attendances will mean a poor financial footing, with lower season and match ticket sales, lower merchandise sales and lower potential sponsorship income aswell. Wakefield really can't be on a sure financial footing whichever way you look at it. That means they're going to struggle to find the funds to not only cover current costs, but costs for the future aswell (youth structure, new facilities, new merchandise, for example) and that's where they are going to start struggling.

Now, this is mainly for St Pete, or those who share his views and concerns;

You ask why a Championship team should be guaranteed passage into the league at the expense of a team already in it, before the franchise system has taken place?

Let's look at Widnes. They are stronger than Wakefield, Harlequins, Salford and Crusaders currently, in most aspects. So if we're assuming it's Widnes coming up, there are 4 clubs who don't deserve to be in the league over Widnes. If Widnes were to come up, they'd move ahead of Castleford, Hull KR, Bradford and Catalans quite quickly, so they have the potential to be better than 8 teams currently in SL.

So it's a safe bet to say that Widnes coming in at the expense of a poor performing current team would be a cert, even if you waited for the applications to be submitted.

I believe the grading system (A, B and C) should be what future franchising should be based on. Those in class A are straight in, no questions asked, those in class B should be thinking that if they don't try and get into class A, they could fall into class C and of course those in class C will be considered for relegation, should a team in a lower division (or an expansion team) be in a stronger position.

Right now I'd say Widnes are a B team, with Wakey, Salford, Quins, and Crusaders all in the C category. Now lets go with my earlier system and discount Crusaders as they are a new club and should be given 6 years to progress. That leaves Wakey, Salford and Quins (who have had more than the 6 years to get a system set up). It should be one of these 3 teams who Widnes replace in the league.

Now if Salford really are going to have a stadium built in time (far too many false promises leave me sceptical) then they'll jump up into the B class and don't need to worry for now. If Wakey get their stadium started in time for it to be ready for the 2010 season, then they'll do the same, although I'm even more sceptical about their chances than I am Salford.

But for arguments sake, let's say Salford do and Wakey don't. That means one of Wakey and Quins will be replaced by Widnes. The other, then has to worry about another lower division club with a stronger application than them, say Halifax, for example, and they could be replaced aswell.

Overall, the franchising system is in place to increase not only the quality of the competition now, but make sure clubs put the hard work into improving their clubs' stature for the future, forcing them to put the time, money and effort in now, if they want the rewards of top flight rugby league years down the line.

Who knows, 20 years down the line, even A class clubs may have dropped down to C class and be threatened with relegation.

One final thought;

History does not mean a strong future

That would take way to long to read

As I have said on the VT im amazed we (HKR) are not the first on everyones list to be binned.
The gnashing of teeth when 2 Hull clubs were allowed in SL was deafening.

From the struggling Yorkshire clubs, maybe; not from round here I don't think. HKR bring a lot more good things to SL than do Wakey or Cas.

Agreed.

i live in wakefield and from the local fans i have spoken to they are expecting to be playing national league after next season. its not concrete evidence by anyones reckoning but they are my favoutites to lose their SL status!!!!

For me, it would be Quins to go - Widnes / Halifax / Barrow being the contenders to join SL.
Probably Widnes. Then Wire can have their own Derby match again!


I realise London is a so-called 'expansion' area, but after god knows how many years they still have dreadful support and a team at the bottom of the league.
And it wont change anytime soon. Give it up RFL. It aint working!
Crusaders? Give them some time. I think Wrexham could prove to be a smart move.
Catalan? Cant knock them. Brilliant addition to SL - Especially for the weekend experience at their place.

To even consider binning Wakey and (particularly) Cas, is just plain daft IMO.
I'd go for Salford before either of those 2 anyway.
And what exactly have Huddersfield achieved off-field since the franchise began?
Decent enough team, but still relatively poor marketing and support in comparison to say HKR (and their millions......and millions of away fans!).


And dare we even mention Bradford these days? Talk about a club in utter freefall. I really do fear for their future, unless something dramatic happens in the next year or so.

The thing I don't like about the idea one SL club will lose it's license come what may is in theory it's quite possible for all the NL sides to be in no state to outscore the grade C SL sides and for all the grade C SL sides (they are the only ones at risk) to do better on each franchise criteria then any of the NL sides.

As it happens Widnes probably do outscore the likes of Wakefield so this will spare the RFL any blushes this time but what happens in future if all the SL sides score B or better so are supposed to be immune from losing their franchise next time around?

Are the RFL going to repeat this promise and ignore the state of the SL clubs which could be far better than any NL applicant?

Bottom line is if you run a franchise system it should be straightforward in that to get into SL you have to outscore an existing SL side on whatever criteria are set. If more than one NL does so then more than one SL should lose their place but if none of them outscore their SL counterparts then no promotion.

Otherwise it completely defeats the object of the franchise system.

Dave

Agreed with all above.

either cas, quins, wakey or salford to go
none will be missed

But you can't do that fairly, Dave. As I've pointed out before, no NL side is going to get the 10k attendance point, for example, or the $4m turnover point. I think it's fair that those two criteria have been reduced to 2.5k and £1m, respectively. The other criteria are broadly similar anyway - stadium, youth setup, financial stability etc. Playing strength is covered by the requirement for a final appearance (you can't expect a Championship club to compete with an SL club).

If we took your system on board, no Championship club would [iever[/i get promotion, and SL would become a closed shop.

The NRL works that way. The only time new clubs come in ius when the league is expanded. What we want is a higher standard all round and by putting the bar as high as posible it will will encourage NL clubs to get better. Whether that's realistic to expect or not is another matter

I don't think it is realistic. Without the threat of being moved out of SL, I don't believe the likes of Salford, Wakey, Cas (and possibly even Saints) would even be thinking about new stadia, for example.

What I'm saying is that the threat of relegation can only come if NL clubs sort themselves out, put a strong case forward for a license and give the NRL a decision to make. That's what the franchise system is supposed to do. If clubs are resting on their laurels because there's no threat of relegation, the NL clubs must take a share of the blame

I don't have a problem with that. Who judges whether Championship clubs have reached the bar though? Thankfully - not the fans (or some fans on here) of current borderline SL clubs because very few of them will admit that Widnes are better placed than they themselves currently are. The RFL know differently and will take that decision in March. I'd prefer P&R - just from a sporting principle and i accept franchising should steady past turbulence. I just wished the whole thing wasn't so vague and messy.