I'm no sherlock holmes but i think proof needs a collective weight of evidence. Whether McGuire knocked on or not was clearly ambiguous, hence the need to go to the video ref and the fact we are having this very discussion. Wigan got the rub of the green and did very well to get a win out of it. Together with the point at Headingley, those fine measures could make a big difference in the long run. These things tend to even themselves out tho. Wigan Wire final with Wire taking the honours imo



Of course - same argument for any player.

IMO the ball came out of his hands, went forward and hit the floor, knock on. Its irrelevant whether he attempted to kick it or not.

:1eh0p32e

McRhino

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he attempted the kick to cover up a knock-on, any player would have done the same but its still a knock-on

cant see what all the fuss is about

So a player loses control of the ball it goes forward and hits the ground. The player strikes at the ball with his foot. How high does the ball have to bounce before you give a knock on? or how long do you wait?

If he kicks it side ways then hes not knocked on as he???

The arguement was that McGuire dropped the ball!
The reason it went to the video ref was because the ref didnt see what had happened clearly. If his foot was making contact with the ball as it hit the floor then play on but there was clear air between the foot and the ball on the floor!

Woah! What, less obsessed than checking up how many posts someone has done?

Wait, you haven't got men watching my house have you?

If this intrusion is in reference to my suggestion you'd be cack in a debating team I apologise. You'd be awesome in one. In wigan

I think the difference here is that McGuire knocked on realised and tried to kick it to make it look like he was kicking as Tomkins grabs his arms he was probably going to grubber it through Tomkins gets him and he knocks on and still kicks it and tries to con the referee (like anyone would not taking any moral highground here). The fact is that anywhere else on the pitch if that was checked would also not be given as he knocked on trying to kick due to Tomkins doing his job. Its a massive grey area at the minute but I think a little sense has to be applied. If he had done it 20 metres out then fair enough he could claim he was going for a drop goal and the try should have been given but when hes 5 metres out and it would have taken a miracle to get a drop goal from the angle he was at then its clear that was never his intention and there should be no try given.

Dont forget Sam was cheating and should have been penalised for making a tackle! Leave them to it with Cas and Saints. Clearly we are getting everything our way this season. You only have to look at the penalty counts in games and the number of bans given out whilst identical offences are not charged to see its clear the RFL are in our back pockets. After all Super League needs a strong Wigan

Wow no need to be so touchy, was only joking my friend. You are obsessed with Wigan though, as your profile proves, I dont blame you to be honest, after all we are the most decorative, successful club in the world.

The only real issues here are that:

a. Leeds would have won
b. They were playing Wigan
C. It was Danny M's mistake
d. Sam T tackled him

Remove these variables and no one would be discussing it!

Correct, just like if Sam didnt play for Wigan he wouldnt get boo'ed..............

Point a being the crucial one, in a season of dismal averageness (through a combination of several factors, mainly self inflicted) we need every league point available. We certainly dont need a vital try denied through lack of knowledge - by 2 professional refs.

The other points you make are irrelevant, but do back up my suspicions that despite Saints & Wire being way superior, most pie fans fear Leeds the most. Just as when we were good, Wigan were our bogie team.

Nope. No fear at all for Leeds, anyone who can play rugby without getting sucked into a niggle-fest will beat Leeds easily.

That's a new one.

Even on TotalRL - which is superficially a neutral site, though most of its posters still hate Wigan - they are saying the same thing. Had the incident occurred earlier on and had it not been a Leeds v Wigan situation, there would have been no further comment.

Leeds seem to have a huge self-pity thing going on at present, which I suspect stems from being stunned at how quickly they've fallen from grace. The attempts to blame Wigan players for McGuire's injury last season, the private meetings to discuss other clubs' tactics. the ludicrous overreaction to the Lima tackle, and now this - all smack of a club striking out because they are basically in a daze.

Of course, comments in the media have helped fuel their outrage. There are two things you can be sure of: a) Had a Wigan player dropped that ball and had his resulting 'score' disallowed, there would have been no mention of contoversy in the RL press. b) There would have been none from the Wigan fans either.

I fear every team. You aren't special enough to be the one I fear most!

It was a knock on, always has always will be. It's a knock on in the amateur game the junior game and the professional game!

You my friend are deluded.

Surely it becomes a judgement call on what the player intended to do, just like whether a player plays the ball or the ball plays him when effecting a tackle decides whether its a knock on or not?

The example you give would be a clear knock-on.

My penny's worth (and I know your all waiting on it with baited breath) is that even given Cumming's "liberal" interpretation of the rules the McGuire incidence was a knock-on as he was not attempting a drop goal; he was looking to grubber through (I can't believe some people on this thread are suggesting he was not committed to a kick through and reacted to droppping the ball - get down to Specsavers if you do) and could not execute the kick correctly due to the pressure he was under. This lead to a hash of the attempted kick and a knock-on occurring.

Right we give in it was a try. Get Mr H to get the table adjusted asap. Dont fear Leeds, your players raised their game twice and took a point! We only showed up for 20mins and your cricket ground car park and half a game at DW.
If and its a big if, we were to fear anyone Wire are the only ones and they are beatable esp if we turn up as did agaisnt Huddersfield!

Your spot on! He dropped the ball attempting to kick it but he dropped it! Ofcourse leeds next game will see danny show us that this is how he normally kicks!

+1.... Made me smile.....

Your assessment is fair enough, but it's a bit sad that we all have to keep evaluating and re-evaluating this incident. Whether he was trying a grubber, whether he fumbled - all irrelevant. It was a knock-on. It was very clearly NOT an attempted field-goal. That should be the end of the matter, though I suspect it won't be - that will only come when Leeds next lose, and their fans need to look for a different excuse.

But I have to mention one thing that is killing me. All fo a sudden Stuart Cummins is a font of all knowledge.

People have very short memories. He was far and away the worst ref in modern times. He's the only I know whose performance was so bad that he got taken out on the pitch by a fan, during a professional match.

He is probably the reason that all the other refs are so bad at times. HE is in charge.

I was impressed with the ref in the championship game last night, he should get a shot at super league. Very impressive!

Really? I thought he was pretty poor.

Watch all the dirty tackles of the 90s on You tube, only then will you realise how bad Cummings was as a referee, how and who put him in charge?