Same mate. I understand your point from a purely attacking point of view and I haven't argued against it. However there's much more to a player than that imo. I've been hugely Impressed with the change of culture at our place and, as said by Stu in the post above, by the change in winning mentality at yours. I don't think you can argue both sides of the argument though. A quitter and disruptive force like Barba is not conducive to that kind of change. It's a straight choice...one or the other. That's why he got the boot from Cronulla, amazing attacking threat or not.

I stand by what I say. Clean living, team oriented, family man (and great attacking threat ) French over wife beating druggie quitter (and slightly better attacking threat) Barba any day.

Neither have I mate. I'd have Walmsley, Paasi, Roby (well earlier in his career at least), Lomax and many others in our side in a heartbeat. Barba never.

Thats a very different argument though. In terms of culture, setting standards, influencing younger players then of course French as a man however the argument was (as I understand it) ability wise.

Purely from a RL point of view then there is no contest, IMO anyway. We all know Barba is a horrible human being but he was a better rugby league player. If French or Field go back to the NRL and rip it up over there then I'll hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

You mean like Barba did?



The man is toxic. The argument, even if you take it solely about ability, has to be taken in the round. You can't simply say he was a better attacker therefore he was better. He was an awful...and I mean truly awful...defender. He was a quitter who, in his final season was a total liability. He was disruptive, selfish, a criminal and many other things beside. Virtually none of which, apart from his attacking threat, made him a good player to have in your team.

You can't argue for the change in winning mentality in one post and then hold up the very antithesis of that as being a good player. You're arguing opposite sides of the same argument there. Good players contribute to a winning mentality. Bad ones help destroy it. You choose which you value the most. I know which I do.

You've made this into a moral crusade. I wouldn't want Barba back at Saints for the very reasons you mention. He let us down by quitting, he has admitted that it was a mistake to leave us, his wife was desperate for him to stay to be away from the bad influences over in Oz.

However I am not talking about him as a person. I am purely talking about his ability as a player. His dynamism in attack allowed his deficiencies in defence to be overlooked.

Okay I'll put it another way. Lets suppose hypothetically that Barba was a clean living nice guy like French. Purely as a rugby league player, Barba was better. Period. Fact. In my opinion, I'm not interested in taking his standing as a man into account.

The big shame re: Barba is that he seemed to thrive at Saints - his family loved it over here and as I understand it were keen to stay. Probably because he was away from some bad influences and in a club with a decent culture.

I think he will probably look back on a lot of things as mistakes in his life and leaving Saints is probably one of them. That said, for all his genius, he was an absolute joke in defence at times (albeit that got much worse after his head got turned and the effort dropped).

By the way - interesting views on past drug takers with questionable history re: criminal behaviour and views, including those who screw up their own team's chances with their selfish decisions. You could never have one of those in the club eh

Very true. You would hope that, at some stage, he would regret some of his behaviour and choices, including leaving Saints. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

You're right there too. The big difference is that Zak wants away, However he hasn't hung up his boots and started bottling out of tackles. What's more, for all his faults, I don't think he ever could. I think there's a marked difference right there. Zak has redeemed himself over the course of his tenure at Wigan and, when he leaves, he'll leave with the good wishes of the Wigan fans (watch him self combust this year now I've said that!

) You can't really compare the two beyond they've both had a chequered past. Had Barba followed the same path as Zak has here I wouldn't be saying the things I have today.

But you have to as his playing ability does not stand apart from his character when you are considering him as a player!

Let me put it this way: would you consider the final season Barba to have been good for Saints? If not (and I'm assuming not) do you think that was down to him suddenly losing all his ability or was it because of his character and him being a self ed quitter?

You can't separate the two. They don't exist in isolation. Every player is a combination of their ability and their mental strength and character. Barba had all the (attacking) ability in the world but his mental strength was, shall we say, questionable. That doesn't make for a great player! Flashy?...yes! Capable of some eye catching moments?...yes! A great player? No. A hundred times, no.

Edit: I think I can resolve this by asking who you consider to be the better player for Saints: Coote or Barba?

A good joust with reasonable debate going on.

Can anybody see this happening on RedVee?

That's an easy one. Coote hands down however to be fair I'd probably say he's in our top 3 overseas signings from the last 20 years or so. His longevity, assists, goal kicking, defence and organisational ability was top class. You can already see now with Welsby from watching at the game that positionally he has a lot to learn, Makinson regularly talks to him throughout the game guiding him where to go.

To be fair, I've read this site for a long time, always nice to know what the enemy thinks of you



Despite the rivalry there's some very sensible and knowledgeable posters on here that can give credit where its due. I've certainly not come on here for unncessary arguments. Both YG and Rogues Gallery will confirm that I'm fair minded.

I’ve stood back and enjoyed it Stu.

It’s a good to see someone else’s perspective on things. It’s almost impossible to change an opposing fans mind on most subjects but for me it’s still good to hear opposing views particularly if it’s good humoured and honest.

Personally I think Saints are capable of a clean sweep this season. You are exceptionally hard to beat.
We are making good progress and after the dross of Lam hopefully our trajectory will continue upwards. Another really good prop and I think we would be a serious threat to you. If we could (don’t laugh) swop Walmsley for say Singleton I’d go into a match with you quietly confident. For all my criticism of Walmsley he his a top notch player and would transform any team in the league.

For all that I will still laugh and whoop when you lose. lol

I agree 100% It wouldn't even be worth a debate. Just to relate that back to the discussion we're having, he's by far the better player despite having nowhere near Barba's attacking threat. In fact he doesn't even have anywhere near French's attacking threat for that matter. The reason he's the better player is because he's the better player in the round. Not as good in attack but waaaay better in defence, a better influence on the team, better professional and a better club man. All things that combine to make him the better player.

As I said, you can't separate out 1 individual aspect and say "because they're exceptional at that, it negates all the negatives". If that were the case you'd have picked Barba over Coote.

Never mind sitting back and being entertained...get some work done! I'm doing all the heavy lifting here

It’s a strange one with Wigan at the moment for me. I can’t work out if they are any good or not. Clearly it’s an improvement on last season and they have some real pace in the backs. The pack has looked decent but I feel they would come up short against Catalans or Saints.

They’ve also played HKR who looked really out of sorts and a new spine and then Leeds who had lots missing. However Wigan have definitely looked much better, I guess time will tell.

I’d say you on points pretty comfortably. No need for my pontificating.
Genuinely enjoyed it.

Longevity?

You only had him for 3 years from the age of 28…

Compared to some overseas signings, 3 years is a decent time, some only do a year before they get homesick. Also I was comparing him to Barba who only did one and a half seasons with us so Coote was at Saints for double the amount of time.

Coote was (is) a very clever player, his reading of the game excellent. However his feigning of injury was annoying, borderline cheating?

My favourite memory of him was his tackle on Regan Grace as Bevan French raced past them both for the try that set up Wigans win in the League Leaders decider at your gaff in 2020.

*Holds trophy aloft to the cheers of the massive crowd*



Cheers mate. I enjoyed it too. Kudos to FTV and Stu for engaging in the way they did. It's a real pity there aren't more like them as it's always enjoyable to get the opposition viewpoint when it's done like this.The LeBron/Wolf69s of this world are just sad and tedious.

On a similar note I remember having some great discussions and banter with opposition fans on the way to games. It's was one of the things that made Rugby special. It's a shame it doesn't translate across forums like this more.

I think most people are genuinely decent folk unfortunately its gobshoites who shout the loudest.
Wolf69 whatever he calls himself these days is the biggest gobshoite. Hopefully his mam will hide his laptop for a while to keep him quiet for a bit then he can reinvent himself again.
Actually I don't mind him posting. I find some of his/her posts amusing but they always reaffirm what a total gobshoite he is.

See his/her/its post re: Isa where he/she/it completely misses the point that it's not about foul play but how it's dealt with. ISA got a 4 game ban!

Still, why let that fact get in the way of a good anti Wigan rant?

....and just about most if not all posters on here critisised Isa for his behaviour - I cannot recall anyone praising him at the time.

Huddersfield home

Singleton 14 carries 84m 21 tackles

Ellis 14 carries 112m 38 tackles

Partington 4 for 33m 21 tackles

Mago 8 for 58m 24 tackles

Byrne 7 for 49m 25 tackles

Smithies 9 for 69m 25 tackles

Isa 10 for 56m 25 tackles


Farrell 15 for 105m 36 tackles
Bateman 17 for 158m 31 tackles

Powell 51 tackles

Really good start to the game from Singleton and Ellis against Hill and Yates.

Improvement from Singleton and massive numbers from Ellis.

Bateman back to his best.

Huddersfield dominated possession between 30mins to 50mins so could explain quiet games for Byrne and Mago.

Really happy with the starts from Mago and Ellis. Excited to add Havard to this pack.

I'm a big fan and believer in the potential of Byrne, but last night was a tough one for him. He got knocked back on a couple of hit-ups.

Much improved from Singleton and wow from Ellis.