I'm off out now Dave so I'll answer in full at another time. However, to answer you question above, yes of course it is. Equally it is possible that it has no effect whatsoever! Let me ask you several in return.

Which is the most important (in your opinion of course!

) between these sets of variables with regards to playing form:

1) New Coach
2) Captaincy

1) Fitness
2) Captaincy

1) Nutrition
2) Captaincy

1) Form/quality of team mates
2) Captaincy

1) Tactics/gameplan
2) Captaincy

I could go on of course, but I'll leave it there for now. Just answer 1 or 2 for each pair.

Billy Blan

Regarding good or even great loose forwards, I discussed this issue with my Dad this night and who has been a Wigan fan actively since around 1928. He reckons possibly the best ever Wigan loose forward he has seen was Billy Blan.

But he reckoned there was another who played in the 1930's for a Cumbrian team, whose name he remembered, but I forget, who was even better than Blan generally.

For myself, we have lost the skills for loose forwards, as we have for hookers.

The last of the good loose forwards, and I mean 'ball playing' loose forwards was Harry Pinner of St.Helens.

I understand this may be rubbish to many, but to the few, it will be 'pearls of wisdom', I hope.


O'Loughlin while a good player, has to 'step up a bit' to be regarded with blokes like the above, as a ball playing loose forward.

I think it needs to be taken in context though MF. Ball playing LFs were very much the norm in those days and hookers/fullacks not the creative force they are today. The positions are no longer comparable to that era and the term needs to be relative to other LFs in the [ucurrent[/u era.

dont talk rubbish. o'loughlin probably has more skill in his little finger than these players ever did!

Carry on.

you only have to watch a video of games from in the 50's or whatever to see how far behind the skills levels are of the players in that era. Never mind going as far back at the 1920's! fair enough they was top players in there day but the game as improved so much since then as far as skill levels, fitness levels etc are concerned so to say o'loughlin needs to step his game up to be regarderd with these blokes is laughable as players from that era are probably not half as good as o'loughlin is!!

Quote ="Pengy"you only have to watch a video of games from in the 50's or whatever to see how far behind the skills levels are of the players in that era. Never mind going as far back at the 1920's! fair enough they was top players in there day but the game as improved so much since then as far as skill levels, fitness levels etc are concerned so to say o'loughlin needs to step his game up to be regarderd with these blokes is laughable as players from that era are probably not half as good as o'loughlin is!!'" And of course you actually saw these players play ? Of course if you did, then you could offer an unbiased opinion. So your 'opinion' is based on what ? You do also realise of course you are slagging off a Wigan 'great', as recognised by the Wigan RLFC Official website. www.wiganwarriors.com/News_full.asp?newsid=3776

Quote ="Pengy"you only have to watch a video of games from in the 50's or whatever to see how far behind the skills levels are of the players in that era. Never mind going as far back at the 1920's! fair enough they was top players in there day but the game as improved so much since then as far as skill levels, fitness levels etc are concerned so to say o'loughlin needs to step his game up to be regarderd with these blokes is laughable as players from that era are probably not half as good as o'loughlin is!!'" And of course you actually saw these players play ? Of course if you did, then you could offer an unbiased opinion. So your 'opinion' is based on what ? You do also realise of course you are slagging off a Wigan 'great', as recognised by the Wigan RLFC Official website. www.wiganwarriors.com/News_full.asp?newsid=3776

To answer your question Dave, yes it is.

You have however avoided answering an absolutely key point which I have put to you several times on this thread. So I'll put it to you again - are you saying that Lockers will play worse this season when he is captain compared with when others are occupying that role, or not?

We can all monitor his performances this season and make a judgment on your argument. It will be much easier for people to judge his performances this season to work out if the captaincy issue is a factor, rather than comparing this season with last, when he was playing superbly but in different circumstances from the current situation.

It would be nice also if you could state for the record that you hope you are wrong - it would obviously be best for Wigan if Lockers' high levels of performance were demonstrated in all games, and I'm sure as a Wigan fan you will be hoping that your argument is proved incorrect by Sean's performances this season as captain. I know I will be hoping so, not because I want to win an argument on this board but because if I'm right and Sean's form is consistently good then that will put the club in a stronger position to actually win something this season (and for a Wigan player to be in with a shout of the MoS).

Well I haven't been following the arguments on this thread, but imo Lockers (and Wigan) are already benefiting from the captaincy being, at least partially, removed from him.

im sure if you asked sean does he play better when hes not captain the answer would be it makes no difference...he just goes out and does his best whatever the circumstances because he`s that type of player.....captain or not he`d play the same....the question is does the team play better when he`s not captain and again judging by players comments about sean he is someone who is respected by his teammates and i think this would make no difference...some of the comments about him playing better when hes not captain are disrespectful to him as a player imo...

Couldnt agree more, I think its laughable to suggest that Lockers play has changed due the Captaincy being partially removed. Do we actually think other than the change of coaching that lockers will have changed anything he does? He was quite rightly told by MM before the season that he need change nothing and still lead the team regardless of wether he is capt on the field for that particular game.

Wasn't Lockers captain on Good Friday? The last ever Good Friday derby game at KR which wigan won 18-10.

Indeed he was. He also put in one hell of a performance. He made the most metres than any other forward (114 metres) and made more tackles than any other player (47 tackles).

Sadly though he doesn't get the plaudits he deserves from people in the game. See my signature for example.

So surely if DaveO's theory is right then we should have expected his performance to suffer not improve

I notice Dave O has gone very quiet on the subject.

Why?

Its fairly safe to assume that Locky was not comfortable with being the sole Wigan captain.

The leadership team is clealy having a positive effect on the squad both on and off the field.

RLW Player of the Month for March, so someone sees what he does.

Terrific, i would particularly like to hear from the player himself about the differences between this season and last...

Both on a personal level and as a team - i feel Locky above any other player would beable to provide the most significant insight.

On current form he is the best 13 in world IMO.

Thats a very big call.

I wish i could view the NRL to see if your correct!

At present on [ucurrent form [/uI would pick him over Adam Blair, Bronson Harrison, Paul Gallen, Greg Bird and Nathan Hindmarsh, Gareth Ellis, Sam Burgess and anyone else you can think of IMO.

O'Loughlin has evolved into the all round loose forward, many NRL loose forwards are just tackling machines bart Greg Bird but O'Loughlin has everything to his game.

He can put in big hits, has a massive work rate, he's got speed, good kicking ability, tops the try assists and has cut out his mistakes which he used to do a lot.

He is the best in SL at least.

Don't tell Hull FC fans.

I think Hull FC fans saw enough of him a couple of weeks ago to not even need telling.

So under-rated got everything! Been very unlucky with injuries and maybe doesnt get bigged up as much on sky/tv unlike Cunningham, Sinfield, Burgess, Briers etc. I prefer to trust my own opinion and the opinion of top coaches. Believe me Captain or not he is exceptional and if he keeps going like he is he should be MOS at the end of the season. Maybe he doesn't get MOM on here as much as he should because we just expect it from him