Is it only me, but I don,t get what Lam is seeing with playing all of these young guys together. There is no doubt that in 3 or 4 years time POTENTIALLY we have the makings of a very big good pack of forwards.
However at the moment and for most of last season we are being pushed around the park by bigger more experinced packs.
For all of their obvious potential let's be brutally honest here about these young guys, for all of their heart and workrate and defensive effort and lets me say here they offer loads in these departments, what do Partington and Smithies offer with ball in hand, no go forward and not particularly skilful at this stage of their careers, because of their size I think Byrne , Kilner and Havard are better prospects although they still need to develop the strength to take on the big guys week in week out, our metre making at the moment is non existent and through no fault of these kids, they should not have to be trying to do it week in week out when clearly they are physically not up to it.
Equally and more worryingly the reason Lam puts them in each week is because the older forwards are lazy and underperforming. when you have a pack out on the park that contains Oli, Isa Faz and Smithies our threequarters are bigger.
If we are going to achieve anything this season and give the likes of Hastings and Smith something to work with Lam needs to be getting Bullock, Flower, Burgess Clark and Greenwood out there fully fit, motivated and playing to their full potential, and just drip feed one of these young kids in each week not playing them all together.
I am all for giving kids a chance but not all together at the same time.
It is Lams job to get a tune out of these older guys or move on an bring someone in who can.

Don't think you'll find many that disagree

I really want too but I can’t on the whole disagree. I will take issue with the Smithies criticism though; he’s been a brilliant player for us and will only get better. Deserves his place in the squad IMO.

Yeah agree

Lets now start picking on the young players when the problem lies with some of the more experienced players, especially those who have passed their best.

You throw 3 young props in with Clubb in his current state and you’re asking for trouble. Big Tony made another whopping 25 metres last night from 5 carries and got through a whole 12 tackles. They’re rugby Union stats! In fairness to him he only played one spell but that’s 3 games (including the friendly) now where he’s been unable to get through more than one spell (if he’s even made it that far). He should e been retired by the club but he wasn’t and he’s not going to walk away.

On the plus side looking at the stats last night, Ethan Havard made 98 metres from 12 carries. I’d want only one of him, Byrne and Partington in the side currently (maybe rotating them to give them all chances and keep them fresh) and he’d be at the front of the queue based on that. Ollie Partington is a terrier but he struggled to make ground again with only 50 metres.

The tragedy is that we see these young guys working their guts out in every game and still getting physically battered in the middle.

Those blaming the older forwards are correct.

Some of the elder statesmen in our pack should hang their heads in shame for letting the youngsters take a pounding while they limp off (again).

I’d say this batch of forwards is the best bunch of forwards since Joel Tomkins, Lee Mossop, Liam Farrell, Harrison Hansen, Micky Mac, Chris Tuson, Paul Prescott etc.

Potentially could surpass those when you throw in the others who haven’t featured.

To turn your sights on a bunch of young lads is terrible. The likes of Morgan Smithies is breaking world records aged 18.

We have the best young pack in Superleague by far.

Smithies, Byrne and Havard made more ground than Lockers and Clubb, so it doesn’t stack up to blame any of them for an issue with making ground. It’s not even somebody like Lockers fault, he doesn’t do huge spells and we know he brings loads of other qualities. No pack in the world has 6 starters plus 4 subs banging out 100m plus apiece but the best sides have 3 or 4.

The issue lies with the selection and that’s Lams responsibility.

Read what everyone's said again
Noone is blaming the young lads

Everyone's saying that were picking 4 of them at once Alongside IMO the WORST prop out there to "Support" them (because he never contributes more than 20mins of abject average week in week out) and these guys are having to play 55/60mins each to cover that when they're not ready.
We should be picking no more than 2 of them at any one time and the clarkes/clubbs/bullock/Burgess and flower (injury not withstanding) should be doing the bulk of the work.
These guys should doing 2 x 15min spells apiece, but due to the coach, and inability of certain ones to do more than 20mins a game they're getting battered up front.

The new interchange rule is designed to make props do more minutes, our first line prop atm is doing less and less!

Last week I got in the car and as the team was announced I shook my head in disbelief. Not because of any one particular player, but the inclusion of all of them.
We dodged a bullet last week, especially due to Burgess not contributing anywhere near what we thought he would (which Lam should have known and with Ten minute Tony playing it makes Lams decision even more astounding) and i thought this week he would support these lads by rotating a couple and bringing at least 2 of Clarke / Bullock / Greenwood in.
When I saw the team again about half 6 last night I couldn't believe it.
20mins in and our senior prop is off the field again after making sod all co tribution again and were left with 4 young lads trying to deal with Watts and Millington etc.
It's a good job cas had 2/3 forwards injured because if theyd played wed have been Mullered!

Its Lams job to get the best out of these players.
I didn't like what he was doing from 3/4 games into last year but I thought hed been dealt a difficult hand that with Edward's situation was made more difficult.
Hes had almost 12 months to get ready for this year and IMO we look even worse.

Walking off last night I made a comment that in 35 plus games under Lam I've felt "enthused' about our performances maybe 4/5 times, that's simply not good enough.
If Clarke/Bullock/Greenwood cant get into this team especially when Flower/Burgess/Powell are injured and we know BFUT can only do 10/15 mins of nothing then get rid of them. Theres no point in keeping them?
And if they play next week then it's one thing and one thing only, Lam got it wrong for the last 2 weeks.

Absolutely spot on. Well said Jukes.
A Cas fan told us the teams in the pub before the kickoff and I couldn’t believe the selections and neither could the Cas fan!!

Aye spot on that post and if Jukesays is bagging Lam, then he’s clearly getting things wrong because he’ll give anyone a fair crack of the whip from my experience on here.

Lam needs to change, he needs to get his selections right. He’s signing his own death warrant at the minute and it won’t take long for people to turn on him if he doesn’t change. It all feels a bit Keiron Cunningham at the minute and like Saints at that time, I feel we have far more talent in the squad than is being allowed to come out. A good coach gets more out of players than you thought possible, at the minute Lam isn’t even getting players average performance levels out of them.

Jukes nailed it and you have in there too - ‘Kieron Cunningham’.

I can’t remember who posted it but it was the “Jobs for the boys” thread. This is what Lam feels like. A brilliant player for us and one of the lads, let’s give him a job despite his lack of credentials. Same for Paul Johnson in the S&C role. Is it any coincidence we look like we’re unfit and can’t play?

For me it’s a full clear out of back room staff when Lam goes. We need fresh blood, fresh ideas and a fresh direction.

Easter would be decision time for me. We’ve got 7 games before Saints and they’re 7 winnable games (with varying levels of difficulty). We’d then go in to that acid test against Saints, a side we were a million miles away from last year and it would tell us plenty. We’d then be ten games in to the season and even if we’re in a bad spot, we’d have time to recover under a new man.

If Lam was to still be the man then we need to see some of the following in the build up to that Good Friday game-

-better selections

-an increased go forward to allow the backs to play

-A game plan, a style of play. I want to watch a side and think ‘that’s what we’re trying to do’.

-individuals being left out on performance, not picked on popularity. A genuine competitive edge to selection, driven by players being rewarded for playing well in the first team and in the reserves and losing their places for not doing so.

I’m not holding my breath.

Looking at the match stats last night Clubb played only 22 minutes in the match, Jake Shorrocks played 18 minutes. IMO we could have had another forward on the bench in place of Shorrocks, Morgan Smithies could have played hooker for that same spell.
As it was it meant the younger forwards had to play longer minutes, although I would agree that Byrne, Havard and Smithies were among our better performers.

The guy just isn’t capable of doing even one of those suggestions.


I dread to think what Saints will do to us in our present mindset. We look a shambles but the guy who has created the shambles is oblivious to it.

To turn it around he would have to admit that he has been wrong and from what I see and hear from him suggests that his ego won’t succumb to that.

I’d love to know what Hastings makes of it all

Kieron cunningham...words you strike fear into any fan of any RL team when discussing players turned coaches but the comparison is spot on

I’ve not been convinced by Lam since day one and still not but it’s getting worse not better with him,his only answer seems to be pick more kids,no real clue as how to change it

For me the problem we have is that non of our senior players can do long minutes bar Isa and LF both of whom are too lightweight and both last night were poor in the extreme.
We need Powell back (never thought I’d say that) to enable us to have at least 3 props on the bench. Play Smithies in SR with LF and Isa out of the 17. When SOL goes off put Partington at 13. If LF doesn’t improve bring in Wells or Greenwood.

I don’t see a place for Isa but it’ll never happen in a million years with Lam in charge as he protects the owd guys at the expense of the kids.

22minutes for any prop is absolutely ridiculous and embarrassing unless their injured but with Clubb it’s a common occurrence. How he gets into the team is utterly bewildering.

Shorrocks is nowhere near good enough and 18mins is a complete waste of time giving him a bench spot.

More baffling decisions from Lam

I’m confused why Shorrocks still wants to be here tbh. He’s no kid and his career is basically a few reserve team games and the 15 minutes for the first team. I’d have thought he’d have begged to leave by now but maybe he’s just happy trotting around in his Wigan tracksuit.

His contract is up this season and it’s time to part ways, he’s never going to make it here at Wigan and he needs to realise that. Lam’s doing him no favours by playing him and giving him hope.

Other than aggression and not being scared, I don't see why Partington is in the team. He offers next to nothing going forward. Yes he gets stuck in in defence, but that's not enough. Clubb is a waste of space entirely now. That's our starting props who offer no go forward.

Byrne and Havard look like great prospects, one of them warrants a place, not both.

Not sure of Lams though process in all this, it is going to be interesting to see what he does now.

I do like Partington but I think that’s mainly down to his aggression and fearlessness. If he was the size of Tony Clubb he’d be up there with Luke Thompson as the leagues best IMO. But I can’t disagree with what you say about OP in attack.

We need to be careful with Havard, Byrne and a little into the future in Kilner. Playing prop is the most physically demanding position a RL player can play in and they both shouldn’t be first team regulars at this stage of their career. Especially as we’ve got Flower, Bullock, Clarke, Isa and Lockers who can adequately play at prop.

I think Lam has taken Wane’s youth policy on and I commend him for that but it’s at the expense of the team and will ruin some players. There’s a fine line to walk between youth promotion and first team success and Lam is treading too far over when we have the players available to ensure we don’t tread that far over IMO.

Somebody mentioned trying Partington a little wider in the second row and I’d buy that. He’s got a decent set of hands on him and has a bit of pace but he lacks genuine size to play in the front row on a week to week basis. I don’t like how he’s not only been elevated to being a regular starting 17 player but he’s now actually a regular starter at prop and he’s no way ready for that. He needs managing correctly and to me that would be playing a game or two here and there, where he can absolutely throw himself in to it and then be taken out of the firing line for a few weeks. It’s as though Lam thinks he’s a senior prop just because he isn’t afraid to stand up to other teams experienced heads. He needs saving from himself.

I was only saying that last night about playing him in the second row,on last night's performance i don't think Farrell is safe never mind Isa,that pass from Farrell to Burgess in the second half was awful he had Harry Smith on his inside