Has to start on Friday.

We looked lost in defense up the middle before he came on .We desperately missed his tackles.

I would move lockers to 10 to start the game and play smithies at 13 from the off instead of Clubb

I Would also start Flower instead of Partington.

I would then review the option of weather to bring greenwood on to the bench with a choice between Clubb Partington and Byrne for 2 spots.

Partington was way out of his depth, his first up defence was horrendous and offered no go forward in attack. Lam has a massive job just figuring out his best 17 next week.

Those 72 tackles against Salford must have taken its toll. The superleague website is showing his age is 49!

No matter which way around you play them, they will get knocked from pillar to post at Old Trafford (if we should even get there).

Just let Salford have a shot at Saints. At least they have a set of forwards that will actually get stuck in and not stand around looking shell shocked as the backs try to make metres.

Last thing we need is to allow Saints some more gloating to add to the 75-0. I cant think of anything worse than a Grand Final drubbing to Saints. I was there when Bradford took us apart in the Grand Final and its a horrible feeling.

Giving up again I see?
Interesting way to view things - I've lost count of the number of Times we've been written off and our greatest victories happened off the Back of it Brisbane 94 & Murrayfield 02 being 2 of the biggest and most recognisable

Yeah, lets throw the game.

Christ. Yeah let's run away. I'd hate to have you defending us on the front line.

I'd rather play in a final and have a 10% chance of winning than not play in it at all. Tony Smith made a smart tongue in cheek comment after the 2016 final when he was asked about how horrible his players must be feeling. He said if you're afraid of losing in a final then just don't play in them. To have a chance of winning you can't be afraid of losing.

Saints won’t have the stones to play with that sort of freedom at Old Trafford. They had the get out of jail card and we know how dangerous they’ve been with a free hit like that up their sleeve. It’s a big ‘if’ but if we can beat a quality Salford team and get through to Old Trafford Friday night could well be the best thing to have happened to us. We could go in to a final with zero expectation, zero pressure and a team who will surely want to right the wrongs of Friday. It only takes a couple of dropped balls or a dodgy decision to get this Saints lot panicking and Friday will certainly not have focussed their minds anymore. We’ve seen our lads bounce back when we’ve least expected it in the past, so I wouldn’t put up the white flag yet.

You're right about our mental fragility.

I was more concerned about Wire to be honest as on their day they have a front row that can mix it with ours.

Famous last words but we've steamrolled Wigan 4 times this year up front and I'm struggling to see that changing in the final should you get there as you simply aren't big enough.

Did they play with freedom?

I posted on the VT that Saints beat us with 5 drives and a kick and don’t think I’ve changed my mind. They played basic rugby, not amazing, throw-it-around and offload entertaining rugby. Just steamrolled us with strong carries from the forwards and backs. Mainly due to how our forwards are coached. Imagine Luke Thompson hitting the deck as soon as he gets hit to “get a quick play the ball and into the halves hands”. It’s embarrassing. There’s a reason he’s one of the best props in the world. AND he backs it up with defence. Our props do half of his job (barely).

So back to the original thread.

Smithies has to start at 13 with Flower and lockers starting props and Greenwood, Byrne and either Clubb or Partington on the Bench

When I say freedom, I mean mentally as much as anything. Their minds were totally focused but was that because if that back up card? They were off the line in defence, pushing up in attack, throwing flat line balls around the middle of the field and everything stuck. They were fantastic and in all the dissecting of our performance this week I think we’ve over looked that in some ways.

If they can play like that in a final I’ll be surprised. If we make the final then we need to watch the Halifax semi final if they need some confidence. Sheer guts and hard work by some part time players caused a Saints side problems and those old doubts crept in even against that opposition.

You’re more than likely right. Don’t get me wrong, I’d go in with very little confidence we could win the game (and hand on heart I think we may well get beat Friday anyway) but much bigger upsets have happened in recent times and we have previous for gritting finals out.

You should win it and you will win it IMO but stranger things have happened.

In Brisbane we had match winners at or close to their peak all over the park. If you think this team is capable of any sort of recreation of that performance with Tony Clubb leading the charge then you are living in la la land. Murrayfield we had the likes of Craig Smith, Radlinski, Newton, Connolly, Farrell, Dallas and Lam. On paper the team was just as good as Saints, we all knew that if we played well we could challenge them even if we were underdogs.

With the current team, we are not even close to them on paper in the forwards. Not only are our forwards not as good, they are smaller, not as fit and not as athletic. They will steamroller us again and any attempt to commit more men in gang tackles will result in spaces elsewhere which their equally skillful and speedy backs will exploit. Barring one of their players getting sent of as Flower did in 2014, we have no chance of getting within 18 and i dont see why you would be so keen to see us humiliated like that especially against that lot.

Because were Wigan
We want to Win things
To win things you have to be in Finals
You cant be scared of what May happen

Well dont say i didnt warn you. Some things in life are just nailed on and a big loss Saturday week is nailed on as sure as eggs are eggs. Thats if we manage to beat Salford which is not something im confident about in the slightest.

What do you mean "well dont say you didn't warn me"?
I KNOW WE COULD GET MULLERED
so what?

If we lose Friday we lose and Salford will deserve their shot.
What we wont do is "Let Salford have a go".
You can dress it up whichever way you want, but not wanting to win because your worried what Saints will do to you week after is, well, I'm almost lost for words.
Somewhere between, baffling, ridiculous, Defeatist, crazy and cowardice.
But that doesn't surprise me

You carry on coming out with some of the most ridiculous comments I've ever seen on here IMO, but dont surprised if you get called out on them.

PS

Cant say I've seen much of your posts over the last 3 months, then suddenly.

PPS

My comment end of the game Friday
St Helen's did 1 thing better us, EVERYTHING.
they're a very good team, we were very poor, static, passive etc and that's nowhere near good enough.
But, you dust yourself down, get on with it and if we beat Salford Friday then we will DESERVE OUR PLACE AT OLD TRAFFORD.

Contrary to Lam dropping Greenwood I think he needs game time. I see a player who’s suffered head knocks and perhaps has had a loss of confidence. Once he regains himself he’ll be back to the strong running back rower we signed.
I’d put him back on the left. His combination on the left edge last season was one of the reason our attack was so deadly.

We let them play with freedom. We stood and watched them throw it around before bothering to take the tackle. So in a way they played with freedom but still went 5 drives and a kick.

I’d rather get there and lose by whatever margin then not get there at all.

You’re embarrassing with this “throw the game v Salford” mantra. I’d hate to play in a team coached by you. Every time you get a sniff of a better team you’d bottle it.

You brought up earlier that this squad has no leaders. That simply isn’t true is it? We have Powell, Williams, Gildart, Lockers, Farrell, Hardaker. If you have such little faith in this team, or this club, why do you even bother?

I never suggested we throw the game V Salford.

I was speaking as a fan, 'let Salford have a go' it would be good for the game and there would be no pressure on them. I think they could potentially cause a huge upset and that would be the next best thing to Wigan winning which IMO they have no chance of.

At no point have i ever suggested that Lam should instruct the team to lose the game on purpose.

You’re saying we should let Salford have a go. If you’re not suggesting we throw the game then God only knows what you’re suggesting.

At no point did i say 'WE' should let Salford have a go. You inserted the 'WE' on purpose to make it sound like i said something i didnt.

I said, 'let Salford have a go' meaning that as a fan and in the interest of the game i would like to see them have a go with no pressure on them and nothing to lose.

I think you'll have every chance if you get to Old Trafford! Why wouldn't you? It's a stage you're used to winning on! I'd certainly give you far more chance than I gave Warrington at Wembley and we all know what happened there!

If you were locked in a gym on your own, you’d start an argument with yourself and then deny it.