I work in Wigan and St Helens and 15-20 years ago everybody used to want to talk about rugby. These days whenever i try to start a conversation about the rugby the vast majority are just not interested or dont watch the game. Even when Wigan are playing saints, i get blank faces like its an alien sport that they never heard of or they just turn their nose up and say they wont be/didnt watch the game.

What happened? Has the game become boring? Very few personalities in the game anymore, no real biff or bust ups, players diving for penalties all the time, lack of genuine overseas talent coming over?

I genuinely believe over sanitisation of the game had had a massive effect on the on field product and the entertainment value.

The shoulder charge going was a bad day for the sport and the 1 punch yellow card rule has also had a massive negative impact on the atmosphere during a game.

There are other issues obviously, as you have mentioned above, and I understand why the above changes were made but it is undeniable to say they have had a negative impact on the wow factor the game once had that separated it from most other sports.

I preferred the game with 2 subs and the five yard rule. Players had to be clever. It's a different game now with different priorities.

The salary cap can carry a lot of the blame.

in the early 1990s, some of the best rugby players on Earth were plying their trade in British RL. There was widespread interest, and it was always a matter of 'when' the next big thing in RU would come over rather than 'if'.

All that is long, long gone, and if you compare - for example - our current stars with the stars of the NRL, they are literally worlds apart. In fact you can watch both leagues now every weekend, and the British game feels amateurish in terms of its standards, its speed, its coaching, its coverage, its crowds, in terms of the refereeing, in the grounds where it's played. It's literally like a different sport.

About 20 years ago, the RFL made the decision to contrive a situation where no club would ever dominate the game again the way Wigan had during those 8 back-to-back Wembley wins. They succeeded ... by turning us into a poor man's game. At a time when British football fans are being entertained weekly by the best in the world, and we can see the best rugby players in the world but only if we watch them on satellite TV, it does feel as if the introverted British game - which sees its pundits getting excited by players like Regan Grace, for God's sake! - is withering on the vine.

The worst thing about it, though, is that there's no real sign of it ending. It's so unashamedly unambitious. No wonder interest is fading.

The reason for the state the game is in is as follows ;

1 - The Salary Cap - We are shooting ourselves in the foot by having it set so low, when we are competing with the NRL and Rugby Union by having a cap so low, we have become a feeder sport. People will say we haven’t got the money, teams can’t afford it and will go bust but on the flip side you won’t get wealthy investors, or wealthy owners wanting to chuck money at a club because they’re not allowed to. It may be a cap on players wages but the knock on effect is it waters down the quality, therefore putting off investors and sponsors and it’s a vicious circle. None of the major team sports make their money from crowd attendances, it’s from sponsors and TV money and we are dealing ourselves a thick un by hamstringing ourselves from the start with the salary cap. Which leads on to the next issue:

2 - Bad Management - It may sound like paranoia but surely if a rival sport wanted to destroy our sport, then surely put someone in or put someone to ruin it from within, like a Trojan horse or fifth column. Now not for one minute am I saying this happened, I’m saying it would be an option for an unscrupulous rival sport. Anyway, totally separate, Nigel Wood did a very good job of ruining our sport in my opinion. The constant changing of the rules, the league structure and so on just complicated things and people switched off eg The Super 8s, getting rid of GB and the Ashes, changing of the challenge cup.

3 - Sanitisation of the Sport - From removing the shoulder charge to getting rid of the biff to having overzealous refs and players blatantly cheating. From having the players back 10 metres, to scrapping certain rules like stopping tapping and go at the PTB and striking at the PTB the game has been sanitised.

4 - The Switch to Summer Rugby - We lost the Boxing Day Derby for all teams, the New Years Day fixture too. So that’s two bank holidays when everybody’s off work with nothing to do because it’s too cold to have a barbecue, go on holiday or anything else. I have a theory that with our shift to Summer, it may be nicer weather to watch a game in but people have lots more options in the summer and therefore more competition from days out. In winter, on a Sunday afternoon there’s nothing to do, so having a rugby match to go to each week gives you something to do. Say, a fixture in August on a hot Sunday afternoon will be missing some fans who have chosen to go on holiday or have a barbecue instead. Football haven’t switched to Summer, they still get good attendances during the winter months. This also killed off the challenge cup and the proper tours.

5 - Competition from outside - Whether it be other sports like football, boxing or rugby union or newer ones like UFC, or even newly followed sports like Darts we have more competition. Plus nowadays computer games are realistic and can be played 24/7 against people all over the world, you have the likes of box sets and Netflix and social media to contend with.

All in all it is the salary cap which is holding us back, I watched the NRL this morning and when they showed the teams walking out there were genuine superstars like Cronk, Warea-Hargreaves, Mitchell, Cleary, Tamou, Tedesco, Maloney, Campbell Gillard etc not to mention the British contingent of Bateman, Hodgeson, Whitehead and Sutton. When we played London, both team bar Gildart and Williams looked like League 1 teams. You’ve got to speculate to accumulate and it’ll take some rich owner to splash the cash on genuine superstars to make everyone else follow suit and keep up.

Excellent post I agree wholeheartedly with you.

When people say, is RL dying, they don't mean RL, they mean SL. The NRL is thriving, and why wouldn't it? They have a great product playing (mostly) exciting rugby that people want to watch. So called "sanitisation" of the sport doesn't seem to have hurt them

Our sport is a fast handling game,much better suited to summer weather and good pitches than mud-baths. Do people really believe that switching to winter and playing in freezing cold conditions will attract any but the most hardcare fans? Dream on.

The days of muddy pitches and snow along the touchlines are over. You are quite correct. But other points that were made stand.

The NRL, for example, doesn't labour under the stringent salary cap restrictions that we do, and is therefore able to thrive.

My opposition to the cap has fluctuated over the years, moving from outright opposition to tacit support and back to opposition again. But we're now in a crisis, I feel ... dying a very slow but quite evident death.

Something has to change very, very soon. We have to make the British game appealing to star names again, which in its turn may reignite some interest among fans.

I think the range of entertainment for people to choose from has drastically increased, the likes of NFL,UFC,t20 cricket various other American sports were not around/accessible 15/20 years ago, then add internet gaming and the selection on TV and Netflix and it’s a much more competitive environment. It also doesn’t help that the product is weak at the moment with more and more top players chasing the pennies in Oz. The only way to stop this is to increase the cap.

Our season opener is usually -2 degrees and snowing, not the best way to launch a season, same goes for the end when it’s pi55ing down.

Who exactly came up with the salary cap idea? Its socialist/communist in nature and just drags the top teams down to the level of the bottom teams. Surely it is illegal if challenged in court? It limits a company investing in better players to increase their revenue via more people coming through the turnstile to see those better players.

It was brought in to stop us winning everything, in realty we pushed the boundaries and became the most famous rugby team in the world, up there with the all blacks, we were in debt and had to win the challenge cup every year to break even though.

I wonder what the Premier League would look like if they were only allowed to spend 1 million a week on wages? All the superstars would go abroad, as would the sponsors and their money, the standards would decrease and the spectacle would follow, because of that the viewing figures would decrease as would the revenue from the TV deals. And here we are.

Really agree with the points made, especially Pieman and the salary cap thing in general.

As a wire fan, things are ok/good at the mo as we have a backer in S Moran who is willing to try and bring in the best players as possible. That said, I wish our side now was competing in the early sl era where you guys, Saints, Bradford and Leeds were going toe to toe. Even though Wire weren’t a part of that exclusive group, it was great as a neutral to watch those games where all the top 4 sides had quality players across the park.

For me, the salary cap has done so much damage. Yes, the overall league is more competitive, but it lacks the box office players to bring the crowds in. A couple of years back, when we had Chris Sandow; love him or hate him, he added (I reckon) at least 2k to our attendances. We had a sell v Widnes only 2 years ago.

I used to hate Wigan many years back, along with Saints now, or any more successful local sides than Wire- which was most! But I found it a bit sad watching your game v London with such a low crowd- It’s worrying times for our game when the the most famous club worldwide, in both codes arguably, has masses of empty seats. You guys used to have an average of 17k a few years back.

Anyhow, for the good of the game, (yes it’s nice to beat the previously unbeatable for us in you guys and Leeds), but I’d rather lose a few matches and have higher attendances returning, especially at our flagship sides.

There’s no easy solution. But one thing’s for sure, if we can start to attract the box office players again by changing the salary cap; our sport will grow attendances and start to attract the bigger sponsors again. Thus giving our fantastic sport the exposure it deserves.

(Post- I’ve just posted at the same time as your post Post)

Wire would certainly flourish if the Salary Cap was gone because you have a wealthy backer and lots of money to spend.

And you know what ... I wouldn't resent that for one second.

We need as many clubs as possible signing big name players. You weren't too shabby in the era we're talking about when you had players like Les Boyd, Steve Roach, Joe Ropati, Des Drummond, John Woods playing for you. Then there was Leeds and Widnes with their big names. Wigan may have dominated overall but it was still a high-class competition with some incredible contests and good sized crowds.

People will always argue that two or three clubs being great is not enough, especially if the cost is other clubs going out of business trying to compete. But other clubs have gone out of business even under the salary cap, and now we have no teams who are great, and the poor crowds are reflecting it (despite the better weather).

Change is cleary in the air. But my fear is that it'll take too long.

Wire are up there now spending money on good Aussies in their prime with Blake Austin, they have decent squad players and have dipped their hand into Rugby Union market with Luther Burrell (Don’t know if he’ll be any good mind), I wish more clubs in SL had the same idea.

I agree with most of what's been said. I would like to say as well that the constant chopping and changing of format and rules has really contributed too. The Super League bosses have been far too reactive and knee jerk. Some of the formats and rule changes have been silly gimmicks at the expense of long term credibility.

Also obviously it's just money. Salary cap is the big one. It's frankly embarrassing that the league only got Ben Barba because he's a coke head and Joel Monaghan because he put his cock in a dogs mouth. How can we celebrate having those players when they clearly only came because of degenerate behaviour? It's like we just pick up the dregs. I'm not trying to take a moral high ground here either, I know Wigan have Zak Hardaker and had Hock, I'm just saying they would be playing in England anyway, the first two just demonstrate that we're such a league we only get outcasts.

Nice one Cruncher and Post. You’ve just reminded me of Widnes during the late 80s (when I first started watching RL). What a side that was. I went to the game Wids v Wigan (88/89 I think) at Naughton Park for the league decider under the floodlights. What a game! Two top quality sides going toe to toe. It’s a few years back, but I remember Widnes winning, something like 11-6 I think??
I can kind of remember the sides. I won’t quote the Wigan one as you guys will know it. But here’s the Widnes side as far as I can remember:

Alan tait
John deveroux
Andy currier
Darren Wright
M offiah ( I think he was still at wids before he moved to you for 400k
Myler/Davies
Hulme
Sorenson
Mckenzie
Joe grima
Koloto
Moriarty
Les holiday/Richie eyes (sent off at Wembley v you in the cc)

(It’s just an educated guess at the team Widnes would have had at the time)
There were other class players not in the 13 I’ve mentioned. Fimalo, other Hulme brother, Mike o neill, Brimma kebie. The Wids forwards brought in by Laughton were absolute beasts.

But as you say, we did have some good sides. I’ll never forget losing out to Joe Lydon’s drop goal (semi at Maine Road). You scored a conciliatory try near the end but it was close. It was such a good side and team which gave your superstars a proper game. I’ll always look back at those times and have a shed load of envy. But, as a Wire fan; a pack of Boyd, Tamiti, Roach, les Davidson, mgginty, and Sir Micheal Gregory will always give you a chance, and definitely give any fan of proper sport a real reason to buy a ticket.

Funny- the Ben Barba and J Monaghan bit

Quote ="The_Enforcer"Who exactly came up with the salary cap idea? Its socialist/communist in nature and just drags the top teams down to the level of the bottom teams. Surely it is illegal if challenged in court? It limits a company investing in better players to increase their revenue via more people coming through the turnstile to see those better players.'" Quote ="post"It was brought in to stop us winning everything, in realty we pushed the boundaries and became the most famous rugby team in the world, up there with the all blacks, we were in debt and had to win the challenge cup every year to break even though. I wonder what the Premier League would look like if they were only allowed to spend 1 million a week on wages? All the superstars would go abroad, as would the sponsors and their money, the standards would decrease and the spectacle would follow, because of that the viewing figures would decrease as would the revenue from the TV deals. And here we are.'" Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Quote ="The_Enforcer"Who exactly came up with the salary cap idea? Its socialist/communist in nature and just drags the top teams down to the level of the bottom teams. Surely it is illegal if challenged in court? It limits a company investing in better players to increase their revenue via more people coming through the turnstile to see those better players.'" Quote ="post"It was brought in to stop us winning everything, in realty we pushed the boundaries and became the most famous rugby team in the world, up there with the all blacks, we were in debt and had to win the challenge cup every year to break even though. I wonder what the Premier League would look like if they were only allowed to spend 1 million a week on wages? All the superstars would go abroad, as would the sponsors and their money, the standards would decrease and the spectacle would follow, because of that the viewing figures would decrease as would the revenue from the TV deals. And here we are.'" Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Absolutely spot on , good post

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" The salary cap works well to equalise the teams competing within a certain competition, whether it be sL or ru etc. But rugby competitions ie. Sl, NRL and RU (spit), are competing with each other. So whoever has the highest cap, is the winner. A cap would only work if it was upheld by all competing codes/genres of the overall sport.

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" The salary cap works well to equalise the teams competing within a certain competition, whether it be sL or ru etc. But rugby competitions ie. Sl, NRL and RU (spit), are competing with each other. So whoever has the highest cap, is the winner. A cap would only work if it was upheld by all competing codes/genres of the overall sport.

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" You're right, it's probably not going to die. But as long as the new regime - which your chairman was near enough the only CEO to oppose - takes over, it'll continue on its route to semi-professional mediocrity.

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" You're right, it's probably not going to die. But as long as the new regime - which your chairman was near enough the only CEO to oppose - takes over, it'll continue on its route to semi-professional mediocrity.