While Wigan is run properly by IL, other clubs are still making huge losses.

Skints have just announced pre-tax losses of £2.4m for the last financial year (compared with losses of £1.7m the previous year) and falling revenue.

This loss is bigger than the SC! When will the clubs and the RL put some proper financial controls in place?

Saints directors may be willing to bail them out for now but this is a worrying position for a club which told its fans the move to a new stadium would put its finances on a sound footing.

Other than Wigan and Leeds are any clubs in decent shape financially? The game is a very worrying position.

Its very strange you decided to post this minutes before this came out: www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/4237 Its a shame youre wrong, but hey ho, well timed.

Its very strange you decided to post this minutes before this came out: www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/4237 Its a shame youre wrong, but hey ho, well timed.

Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"Its very strange you decided to post this minutes before this came out: www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/4237 Its a shame youre wrong, but hey ho, well timed.'" I'm not wrong. There are no figures for the year ended 31/10/2013 in the statement, which is a PR piece.

Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"Its very strange you decided to post this minutes before this came out: www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/4237 Its a shame youre wrong, but hey ho, well timed.'" I'm not wrong. There are no figures for the year ended 31/10/2013 in the statement, which is a PR piece.

No figures, no - but rather the way the figures should be interpreted. I havent seen the accounting sheet - put id put good money on the majority of the "losses" to be consist of the overheads from the stadium (which is in the "pr piece"icon_wink.gif and depreciation of the major asset. In essence both are right, breaking even in Cash value is what theyre getting at. Where youre wrong is the suggestion its not sustainable.

St Helens was a bad example. They have had a massive outlay On their stadium and if their chairman says they are likely to break even this year and become profitable from 2015 and beyond we should believe him.

There does seem to be a significant number of badly run clubs from a financial point of view and a number relying on the owners cash to keep them afloat but that is the same in most sports. It wasn't that long ago we were on the brink.

I don't think the depreciation on their stadium is the main factor in the £2.4m loss. It will be interesting to see what the operating loss position is when the accounts are available.

Hopefully they can turn things around as their Chairman believes. I guess we'll see next year.

What worries me is that so many clubs aren't run on a break even basis (let alone trying to make a profit to reinvest), the game is on a knife edge. Bradford didn't have a chairman like McManus and as a result one of the greatest clubs in the game has been reduced to a parlous state. If that can happen to Bradford it can happen to any club, big or small, and as you point out, it almost happened to us.

Don't get me wrong, I really don't want Saints to be in dire financial straits (one thing we can all agree on is that the Saints v Wigan derby is one of the best things in British sport, not just RL, the rivalry between the clubs is a big part of why we support our clubs). Obviously Saints aren't at the moment in a financial crisis despite another big loss, your directors (including I think McManus) are very generously supporting the club with their own cash and I've seen no signs they are not prepared to or can't keep that going as long as necessary, but it just isn't good for the game to have clubs being propped up in this way. Just because it used to happen at Wigan under Dave Whelan didn't make it right then, even though his support was also generous.

IL gets flak from Wigan fans for not waiving his chequebook around, but he's doing things I think in the best, long tem, interests of the club. We have to remember that RL isn't football, we can't assume that very wealthy people will step forward to bail out clubs, not even sides like Wigan or Saints will necessarily find a benefactor like IL or McManus - just look at Bradford, the dominant club in the early SL era, now reduced to financial ruin.

Hopefully Saints directors and management will put the club on a sustainable basis going forward, with a big improvement in this year's figures being the starting point when they are announced this time next year. It is worrying that the losses have widened this year, I would have thought that now things would be settling down and the club would be on an even keel, but we will just have to wait and see what happens.

Not just depreciation. Read the article - work has only just been completed - the cladding alone will account for 800k of it. It also makes financial sense to keep the outlay for as long as possible (cough tax cough)

As with all these things, if both chairmen walked away tomorrow, Id feel far more comfortable as a saints fan - but I dont want to turn this into a Saints/ Wigan row - financially speaking, Saints have never looked better.

I think Saints have to be applauded for what they have done and in many ways should be a model for RL clubs going forward. Owning a new purpose built stadium with all the income streams that go with that will pay dividends for years going forward. They were very lucky to have McManus there to raise the finance and get things going but there is no reason that other clubs couldnt do the same.

Not sure Wigan are in "decent shape financially". Last set of accounts showed assets of £1.887m against liabilities of £4.123m. I would expect Wigan's 2013 figures to be very good given a Wembley appearance and income from Sam Tomkins transfer however in last year's accounts there was a warning that 2013 would be a "challenging one in tough economic conditions with increased operating costs arising from .... setting-up Wigan TV" so they should make interesting reading.

As for other clubs in decent shape financially then Warrington have just posted a profit for 2013 which I think makes it about 5 years in a row whilst Warrington's assets exceed its liabilities by around £9.7m so as far as rugby league clubs go then I'd say Warrington are in decent shape financially.

Haven't the Wolfs' profits fallen dramatically?

They have, from 366k to 19k, but to be fair the Wolfs do seem to be run on a prudent basis, hopefully that drop isn't a sign of problems to come.

Yes the word profit giving you a clue to Warrington's parlous state. How many sporting clubs post a profit these days?

Figures include transfer fees paid of £215k in 2013. Seems a lot to spend on Anthony England who was our only signing during the year

Leeds

Turnover reduced from £10.7m in 2012 to £10.03m in 2013 mostly due to not reaching a final in 2013.

Profit reduced from £692k to £406k.

Amount owed to the club = £1.643m

Cash at bank = £1.99m

Impressive figures, surely no British club can match that.

Is that for the Rhinos or the holding company incorporating the rah rahs and the cricket facilities. Where do Leeds Carnegie fit into this?

Quote ="Finfin"Is that for the Rhinos or the holding company incorporating the rah rahs and the cricket facilities. Where do Leeds Carnegie fit into this?'" viewtopic.php?f=17&t=573195&start=0 Most of the £2m owed to the club is owed by the RU side.

Quote ="Finfin"Is that for the Rhinos or the holding company incorporating the rah rahs and the cricket facilities. Where do Leeds Carnegie fit into this?'" viewtopic.php?f=17&t=573195&start=0 Most of the £2m owed to the club is owed by the RU side.

It's the Rhinos. Leeds CF & A.
The cricket facilities are owned by Yorkshire CCC.
The Union lot are separate and owe the Rhinos £827k
There's also a baffling annual "management charge" from the Rhinos to the Union lot. Roughly around £100-120k each year. Which is effectively Caddick taking Rhinos profits to prop up Carnegie.

One clarification - since the majority of the corporate facilities at Headingley fall within the control of the RL club (pavilion/Carnegie Stand/hotel), cricket does have a direct effect on Leeds' finances as Yorkshire couldn't hope to put a test or ODI without them. So Leeds make decent money out of this - not as much as in the good old days, but still very worthwhile. Hence the Strategic Report observes that, "Headingley Experience catering budget suffered mainly as a result of the One Day International cricket being a wash out and no play on the Friday of the Test Match."

Wigan RLC Ltd has minimal fixed assets, is technically insolvent and to continue trading is reliant on the owner not withdrawing his support. Even if the company is making small profits now, it's not a happy position for one of the larger British RL clubs.

Go on then, spill the beans. Daryl Clark? Richard Agar?

how do you judge which clubs are the most sustainable?

imo a club needs to self generate funds that make it self sustainable as a business rather than relying on rich benefactors like either moran or lenagan,whose vast ammounts of money that they both put into their respective clubs certainly keep them not only sustainable but also very successful too

how would these clubs manage business wise and also success wise should these owners not pump their money in as they do and just put their self generated profits back into the club as the rhino's do?

apparently leeds rhinos' turnover a season or two ago was larger than both wigan's and saint helens' turnover combined

imo leeds rhinos are by far the best run sl club in this hemisphere without a doubt

How much has Lenagan put into Wigan?

not sure?
how much do you reckon it has cost him to keep wigan at the top echelon of sl without self sustainable profits as a business?

Wigan is a well run club since IL took over and is financially sustainable.
Leeds are also well run but as with most clubs it took Caddick to financially rescue them some years ago and following that he appointed Hetherington. Though their ground is a wreck and they need to invest in it, or a new one very soon.
Saints is a difficult one, they report a £2.4m loss, state they break even and will move into profit yet their loans from directors are massive. With their new stadium they should benefit from that surely in the next few years.
The financial aspects of Leeds, Wigan and Saints don't bother me, it's Bradford and Wakefield that are a worry. They both have been in all sorts of financial strife these past few years but hopefully with the increase in SKY monies those troubles will be behind them.