Looking at players who have been available over the years that have come to Super League or who have moved between SL clubs whilst we have put our faith in players who have turned out not to become top class players does our faith in the youth structure sometimes hinder us?

The question comes to light tonight particularly from the performance of Snyd and Clark. Players who have been on the market, British and top quality yet we appear to have not made any attempt to sign them.

In the case of Snyd, who I feel would suit our system very well we are favouring Powell. When Clark was available we were investing in Logan Tomkins.

Whilst I appreciate you can't have it all ways I do wonder when quality payers become available do we as a club have too much faith in potential, which is often not realised.

There have been one or two times over the past few seasons where I have thought we need to bring someone in to strengthen a certain area, but the club have gone with a youth player. In fact it's the exact same situation now in that we have let Goulding go and I (along with plenty of others) feel we need an adequate replacement but the coaching staff feel we have enough at the club without looking elsewhere.

It is a difficult one, I remember thinking we should have been in for Joel Moon when Carmont left, but where would that have left Thornley? We were linked with Briscoe as Pat Richards' replacement, but that would have meant no place for Joe Burgess who's broke in to the team and been excellent.

The club won't get it right every time, but I think they've got it right enough for us not to question their judgement. Also, don't forget we have paid transfer fees for the likes of Bateman, Taylor, Smith and Green over the last few seasons, so we are doing plenty of outside recruitment alongside promoting our own youngsters.

A McIlorum/Clark hooker combination would be mouthwatering btw, but unfortunately his move to Wire has been one of the worst kept secrets of RL for some time now.

I'd also add, Sneyd was on nobody's radar at the beginning of this season (including his own club), he may well kick on and become a top quality player but he could also be a bit of a one season wonder playing in a very good Cas team. If it's true that Hull have paid over a 100k for him then it's a good bit of business from the Dr IMO. Powell is a bit younger and is looking a very good player and I'm happy for him to get the chance to show he can be Green's long-term replacement.

Trophies in the cabinet say we've got it right in the past but we need to be careful we continue to get it right.

Clark is an interesting one isn't he. We haven't been in for him but if you look at it we'd be signing an expensive player to play part games because we've got a 60-70 minute hooker in Micky Mac already. He's too good to be playing for only 40 mins and Micky Mac is too important to our system and style of play to be doing the same.

It's a simple case that sometimes you can't fit all the players you'd like in to a 17 man side. It'd be great to have two top class hookers in the squad but a salary capped sport doesn't allow that (or it shouldn't). Now if a prop version of Daryl Clark became available and we didn't go in for them I'd be very worried and annoyed. There is only so much faith you can have in your youth system because you can't afford to turn down obvious options just because you feel a misplaced loyalty to a homegrown player who's clearly not as good. I dont think we've done that though as of yet.

As for Sneyd he's hardly worth a mention IMO. He's riding the crest of a wave at Cas but isn't anything special IMO.

I think the exact opposite, our youth system is the reason we have won so many trophies, and stands us in excellent stead for the future as it gets harder and harder to sign top quality players due to the salary cap and relative strength of the NRL. Unfortunately I don't think many fans recognise how important our youth system is, indeed there seems to be an expectation amongst a lot of our fans that we should make a signing for every player who leaves.

I agree. We need to get the balance right and if we do then our youth system sets us apart. If we have players in house who Wane feels are good enough to replace the lads departing then great but we always need to look outside the club as well

Green and Taylor leaving are two prime examples of losing players and needing to get the right balance. IMO we have players already who can replace Green and they deserve a crack at doing so If and when Taylor goes though we don't have good enough replacements within the cub and simply must buy from outside.

Supplement the juniors with good quality players from outside the club in the positions we need and we'll be fine.

Since the change of culture at the club with the introduction of Maguire, we've won half of all the major trophies available (whether you count the hub cap as major or not). We do ok.

Did Maguire rely on youth? He brought 3 world class players with him.

Not in his first season though. We won the GF in 2010 with pretty much the same team Noble had in 2009.

World class? They weren't even good enough for the Austrlia/New Zealand team so not sure how they can be world class. Anyway:

He dropped Roberts for Goulding (later replaced by Charnley)
When Gleeson left he put J.Tomkins at centre and gave Farrell a regular bench spot.
McIlorum was promoted to starting hooker to replace Riddell.

At the time there were plenty on here banging on about how we would struggle if we didn't sign a quality winger, centre and hooker.

He also gave his new signings shirts outside the starting 13, thus emphasising that signings need to earn a starting spot at Wigan just like any other player.

we'd be lost without it

And those three were only here due to the salary cap issues at Melbourne otherwise we would have had no chance of getting them.

The club is financialy stable, we have won a lot more trophies in the last few years than in a long time, we have some fantastic young players in the squad and the club will sign player when needed - things look pretty good at present.

Of course there will be issues - players not developing as hoped, players wanting to leave for various reasons (including players being unhappy at contract offers, lack of game time etc) but that happens.

Looking at payers who have left over recent seasons most have either left after contracts expired (such as Richards), retirements (Deacon, Coley, Carmont etc) some for more money and a small number to play in union/aus - the actual number who have left for the latter reasons is quite small in reality.

Our youth system has given us a lot of talented players - I am pretty sure most other SL clubs would love to have the problems we have!!

I think it is about getting the balance right. The youth system is without doubt a great benefit to the club. I think it is important not to be over reliant on it as bringing in selected antipodeans and more experienced players from other clubs is a benefit too.

I'm very happy with what IL has done so far however the recent rumours of Burgess and Sutton give me cause for concern. If a player has given good service to the club and repaid the clubs investment in him I have no problem with him wanting a new challenge. The two I mentioned haven't done that yet and should he held to their contracts.

Exactly. Losing Tomkins and Mossop for example is understandable if you then use that cash to keep your most promising youngsters and build for the future. I'd have expected new long term deals to be signed by the likes of Burgess and Hampshire by now tbh.

If we start to get our best youngsters picked off on top of having some of our best players picked off you get left with too many of the lads who sit in between in the bracket of 'decent players'. They won't win you trophies unfortunately so we need to be careful.

Yeh totally holds us back, 5 trophies in the last 4 years

Terrible

no

This

As has already been stated, under him some of our talented younger players cemented first team places.



No he didn't.

They only arrived in his 2nd season. Our view of what constitutes a world class player and a good player is obviously very different.

We had a better season in 2010 under Maguire before we brought in Finch, Hoffman and Lima. I think we underachieved somewhat in 2011, yes it was great to get the win at Wembley and end our CC drought, but the effort it took to get there was a complete detriment to how we performed at the business end of the SL season.

Id say that Hoffman was pretty close to world class but no t'other 2

Hoffman is the current unsung hero of the NSW team imo. He's definitely a top draw player but there's still a few ahead of him as well.

In regards to the OP I really can't decide. On the one hand you how can a system that produces so much talent ever be a hindrance?

Then on the other hand if a insular approach is taken you can miss out on other talented lads.

I will say two things however:

1- I'd hate to see a day come where we close up shop and don't go for the big names. I'm 100% sure that some of our fans would like this but for me watching guys like Inga, Offiah, Renouf, Lam, Dallas, Hoffma, Piggy etc is an equal part of what makes our club great.

2- I don't think playeys should be developed in our first team. Players, outside of injuries, should only appear in the senior side when they are 100% ready. I don't want to see guys finding thier feet at this level in the side. They should be sent on loan to get that experience like Charnley was. The WRLFC first team should a place for the best of the best.

I'd say to be world class you need to be one of the three best in the world at your position (so 27 world class players total), otherwise it's far too broad a phrase to actually mean anything, particularly when it gets applied to players who don't even get picked for their national team. Lockers and Roby and probably the only players in SL I'd currently refer to as 'World Class', Peacock and Morley as well when they were younger. Don't get me wrong though Hoffman was a very good player for us. I'd probably pick him in a Wigan SL dream team

In reply to the OP about the youth system holding us back.
I've just been through the club's photo gallery of the first team squad and out of the first 13 - 7 are club trained. Of the first 17 - 10 are club trained and of the full squad of 25 - 14 are club trained. Joe Burgess isn't included as his number is 32.
Not been through other clubs but perhaps not too many would beat that.
Some will be around with variances but I'll bet our youth system is providing more first team players than most others.

By my reckoning the Rhinos just pip you
We have 8 club trained players in the first 13
We have 10 club trained players in the first 17
We have 14 club trained players in the first 25

We have also blooded numerous juniors into the first team this year too

I make it 20 club trained players have made an app for us this season.

Burgess
Hughes
Farrell (Liam)
Goulding
Williams
Crosby
McIllorum
Lockers
Powell
Charnley
Manfredi
Thornley
Hampshire
Sutton
Tomkins (logan)
Burke
Farrell (Connor)
Wright
Murphy
Doran

Joel Tomkins will obviously become number 21 when he plays.

52% of the appearance this season for wigan have been by Wigan trained players. That is 8.84 players out of every weeks 17 that have been trained at wigan.


I am sure someone could work it out for leeds, but for me there first 17 is (against ours)

Hardaker-Bowen
Briscoe-Charnley
Watkins-Gelling
Moon-Thornley
Hall-Burgess
Sinfield-Green
Maguire-Smith
Leuluai-Taylor
Aiton-McIllorum
Peacock-Crosby
Ablett-Farrell
Delaney-Tomkins
JJB-Lockers

Bailey-Bateman
Achurch/kirke-Flower
Burrow-Clubb/Pettbourne
+A.N.Other (singleton, sutcliffe ect.)-Williams

so that would give them a very similar number of academy trained players.

We seem to invest a massive amount of faith in players from our system even when superior proven players become available.

It is great to have such a good youth system which we clearly do, but I feel we gamble on players sometimes. We I feel tend to look to the future rather than look at who is available. It is a very difficult balance to get right but I think personally we are a little too reliant on our youth.