I would hope the mods don't delete or move this post, as I think it's genuinely relevant to RL fans and Wigan RL fans especially. Likewise, it would be cool if they don't merge it with the Burgess thread as, though the two may overlap, I think this is a more distinct question. (Though of course, they must do as they see fit).

And it is a genuine question, which I don't have an answer for but would love to hear a few other views on.

How much of a high profile does international RU genuinely offer its participants?

This is something we hear a lot about when players leave RL. I mean, given the NRL can pay much higher wages than SL can - and yet even they couldn't hang onto Sam Burgess (or Israel Folau for that matter) - there surely must be something else to attract these guys elsewhere?

Now we know there is no sporting or physical challenge in RU. I've played both, and RU is far easier; in fact you can get bored - didn't Kyle Eastmond recently say that he'd just played his first ever game wherein he didn't touch the ball once? You want further proof, look how out of his depth RU hard man Andy Powell was. So it can't be anything to do with the sport itself. Therefore, it must be the extra profile RU offers ... right?

Really?

Though I class myself as a sports fan, I doubt I could pinpoint a single England or Wales RU player purely from facial recognition (I might identify Gavin Henson, but that would be because of his fake suntan). Am I alone in this?

Would England RU players be widely recognised while walking down a street in London or Manchester or Birmingham? I find it hard to believe. I guess they would in towns like Leicester and Bath, but only the way RL players are in towns like Wigan and St Helens.

So what's the deal? Is playing in the Home Internationals genuinely a much bigger draw for an athlete than competing at Wembley or at OT or in the Aussie Grand Final? Is the RU World Cup so much more exciting to participate in than the RL World Cup? Each have their complement of Mickey Mouse teams, so there's no argument there, and I doubt anyone could query the spectacle factor of the RL World Cup (excluding the Kiwis' perfectly timed no-show in last year's final, of course).

I suppose the national newspapers and the old boys at the BBC get a lot more enthusiastic about RU than they do RL - that's undeniable. So maybe I'm being naive in asking this question. But what Sam Burgess has actually done beggars belief. Having just moved his family and settled them in Sydney, having done the near-impossible as an Englishman and achieved star status in the NRL, by far the most challenging sporting arena in the world (nothing in RU's history or future could compete with it), he's now thrown it all away by popping off mid-contract to RU, a game he's never played before and has almost no affinity with. Not only that, he must now run the gauntlet of playing for an entire year with a team who'll be cheesed off with him, in front of fans who will suddenly remember that he's "a pommie ba####d" - and all for the 'glory' of representing England RU (not to mention Bath!!!???!!!)

I'm seriously starting to think it can only be down to money. Surely the money is more important than any of this phoney high profile business? In which case, there must be something the world RL powers can do, some way they can pool resources to ensure we keep hold of at least some of our marquee players. Even if they're all in Australia (I mean, God forbid the Aussies would go out on a limb to help us keep them in the UK!), that would be better than losing them altogether, wouldn't it?

How many average Joes would recognise Brad Barrett, Billy Twelvetrees, George North and Kelly Brown? Not many unless they were RU fans so I agree.

Most could recognise Cipriani and Henson but only due to the fact that have been in the headlines for being prats rather than sporting excellence.

Burgess already is a superstar in Sydney in a game where he gets paid a lot of money playing a sport he is very good at so why change?

Is it playing in front of packed stadiums in big games? England v Aus at Wembley was no small crowd and if we would have got to the WC final he would have played in front of 65,000 for England RL, so is it the International scene?

It all boils down to cold hard cash.

The one who has made an impression was Jason Robinson and that was on the back of winning the World Cup, Chris Ashton has been a flash in the pan with regards to fame so I would say cold hard cash.

Its a crying shame because I just don't get it, people say "So you wouldn't leave your job if they increaed your salary"?

That depends, if I'm on £19,000 p/a doing a job I love and I'm good at and get offered a job on £23,000 p/a doing something that would bore me to tears for a bigger firm no I wouldn't go.

I've heard Burgess is on £600,000 p/a at Souths and has been offered £2,000,000 a year inc Bath contract, England central contract and third party sponsorship. Either way he isn't going to have to work again in his life wherever he plays Rugby so I'd be worried about what legacy I left, he could have been the best RL forward ever, the best Souths player ever, could have been an immortal but he's thrown that away chasing the Union dollar.

It comes down to the international game. High profile 6 nations every year, usuall a Southern Hemispheres tour evey other year with opposing tours at home the other year, and a World Cup every 4 years with a far higher media profile than our (even though it was a great success).

I live in London, and almost everyone I speak to has an opinion on England Ru players despite hardly any of them going to watch club games.

IMO it's a combination of cash and the international profile. Every time England play one of the 6 Nations or southern international teams they get a sell out - when England RL play any of these countries, they barely get 7/8 thou and f all coverage on terrestrial TV. Then you've got proper Lions tours and autumn internationals. We've got the Four nations and no GB team at the moment. Do the RFL, NRL and RLIF not care? We've just lost a potential ENgland and GB captain to the other side FFS!

I'm a bit surprised he's moved before he's won anything with Souths, but i suppose the timing means he would probably still be able to come back to league in about 4/5 years if anyone still wanted him...

Still, a really disappointing day for RL...

Again though - lot of people knowing your name in London. Is that any more attractive than lots of people knowing who you are across the north of England or in Queensland and NSW?

I agree with you on the media. In the UK, we do a generally very poor job in selling ourselves to the media, but there are vested interests working against us here, so even the RFL can't be totally blamed for that.

But I also agree with Post. Rather than remaining content to be the poor man's game, I think we need to start looking at ways to boost our top players' earnings dramatically, even if it's through some kind of central contracts system. This was an idea I once reviled, but I genuinely feel this problem is now way larger than issues of club rivalry. We have to do something to try and tip the balance back in our favour.

Increasing the international profile and international club competition is the only way we will increase our profile and media interest and then the cash will come.

Expand the club challenge, increase French clubs, and have a proper international fixture list. Will start to drive additional media coverage and then sponsors, crowds and cash.

I think we need something in the short term too though, Steve.

Over the years, I was gradually won over by the idea of the Salary Cap. Now I'm thinking we should just quietly forget about it and let our top players earn anything they can anyway they can.

The fact we can only offer so much is a disadvantage as soon as the negotiations start ... long before the agents start dangling carrots like advertising money, paid appearances on TV etc.

you have to remember this generation has seen England win a world cup in Aus in dramatic fashion. If jojnny wilkinson and jason robinson walked down a street majority of people would instantly recognise them i don't think you could say the same for owen farrell and chris ashton.

But there is no doubt the major aspect keeping rugby union dominate in england is they have a strong hold on the schools down south and have a very strong international scene. We have to try and deal with the Aussies and try and make them see not everything is about origin and NRL.

Some of the posts from Aussie fans on Total RL will leave you even more despondent.

It's the usual Aussie bullsh#t and bravado. "We can easily absorb these losses!" "The NRL has always produced stars, we'll just produce more!" "No individual players is bigger than the NRL!" etc etc - yawn - etc.

There is very little acknowledgement of or concern about how seriously damaging this is to the British game.

The big draw in RU will always be the internationals -look the six nations crowds and tv coverage, for what are often poor viewing spectacles. Add in the interest in home nations versus Southern Hemisphere teams as well.

Sadly RL killed the international scene several years ago, is there really that much interest in England v Wales or England v France (look at the crowds) and with no GB v AUS or Lions there is nothing to compete. The RL world Cup actually generated interest - sadly this will fade quickly as there is no follow up to cash in on the interest.

RL will never compete with RU now for the following reasons

1.Salary Cap
RL stick to it - RU has various get outs such as central contracts/sponsorships, so not a level playing field. RU can pay vastly more by various dodgy deals - players in RL have barely seen their salaries keep pace with inflation (or even drop in real terms).

2.Profile
RU has a much higher profile - outside of the NW of England RL is seen as a minor sport, RU is big in large parts of England, France, Scotland, Ireland,Wales and even Italy. RL can't even expand out of the M62 corridor to any extent just look at London's travails.

3. Sponsorship
RU attracts big name companies with serious money - what do we get? A utility company barely anyone has heard of and that is an improvement on last year. Says it all really. Still RL manages on a regular basis to shoot itself in the foot - is there really any confidence in the leadership of the game or the parochial attitudes of various chairmen (and no IFL is not exempt in this)


RL has been in major decline since the 80s - the formation of SL give it a brief burst of life but that faded and the professionalism of RU has seen it forge ahead - except for issues in Wales. The gulf is getting larger year on year and if RU can raid players from the NFL then things are worse than ever.

The earning potential for high-profile RU players *after* they've left the game is incalculably higher than RL.

They can get paid an *unbelievable* amount of money for corporate dinner speeches, or addressing a "team-building" exercise, or "hosting" a box at an international. Ex RL-pros are stuck with speaking at an amateur club for buttons, sitting next to Stevo in a TV gantry, or actually having to work for a living. Until RL gets a proper foothold in the South and/or bigtime corporate links this will continue to be the case, fair or not.

The situation might be different for an NRL legend in Sydney, but maybe Burgess sees his long-term family future in the UK.

He certainly didn't appear to until this week, but maybe something has happened behind the scenes. There have been some unsubstantiated rumours about a bust-up between him and Maguire.

I really think it comes down to the money only. In terms of profile Sam Burgess in Sydney is bigger IMO than Sam Burgess in RU would be. However, combine a higher club salary with £10K (?) per international and these regular international players are set for life.

We need the international scene to grow, the interest in the WC proved that. Over here we need an occasional GB tour which IMO would actually strengthen the other home nations whilst down under I would like to see changes to the qualification criteria that somehow forces those who could play for Tonga, Samoa etc to do so when they are at their prime, not when Aus or NZ are done with them. If this could generate greater income we could eventually pay our stars what they are worth. The problem with this is that the solution is definitely long term whereas the crisis is immediate.

Finally, my old hobby horse. We need our chairmen to get tougher with contracted players!

I've reached the stage where I agree with you on this. I've always been half-and-half, mainly because I felt that if there was a chance the player might come home again, we'd want first refusal, so it would be better not to have a bust-up with him. Also, I'd never want a player on my books who didn't want to be here.

But I'm afraid the players and their agents are really taking advantage now. On top of that, do we really want them back after RU has ruined them? Probably not.

I can understand selling a player when he's only got a year left - that way you at least get a transfer fee. But if he's got something like three years remaining, I think it has to be a case of telling Bath or whoever "come back in two years time". We're the only losers otherwise.

Aside from the obvious factors (short career + lots more money + being managed by agents motivated by income), the most ominous influence is a growing trend that going to RU is a logical next step for high-profile RL players.

This culture has been around for a while and it is growing. It also does not help when RL "legends" like Farrell have such a high profile in RU as well as a link with their old code.

As I said on another thread, I'm afraid we may need to cut that link.

Not through bloody-mindedness, but because we can't afford to let the likes of Farrell in particular anywhere near our clubs or training camps, as he hasn't proved himself trustworthy enough.

Okay, we can't stop them going to matches, going into players' bars etc, but surely the days of having them making motivational speeches in dressing rooms and handing out shirts have got to be over? As long as these guys are held up as paragons of RL excellence they are gong to be an influence on young, impressionable players. And when the reality is that they are plotting the game's downfall, they shouldn't be welcome at any official level.

I think the main reason for Burgess’s decision is cash, but you’d have to ask him; there may also be the thought of a higher personal profile, and better known place in sporting history if he does do well. If he said it was just for a new challenge in a different sport that was behind his decision, then I would doubt that one myself. As for RU v RL then I’ve said it here many times before, we are not fashionable enough, even the “dark side” RU, a much more fashionable sport than ours, can’t compete with football, football is so big even the old school ties can’t bridge that sporting chasm. Football is one sport that has done what RL has never done, or been allowed to do, that is become fashionable from the working classes up. How the RFL well do it I have no idea, it’s much easier said than done when the dark side has its trendy hand-made Italian size tens push down well and truly on the throat of RL. RU has done a very good job for decades in portraying themselves as an upper-middle class sport, while RL is a sport played by the sons of illiterate flat-capped beer swilling, whippet dragging, pigeon fancier ex-miners, and my flat-cap’s off to them; they’ve done a great job of it!

I don't think RU enjoys a good reputation across the board. Most football fans I know mock it for being the preserve of ex-public schoolboys, and while players might be well-known in RU areas, I'll bet there are vast swathes of British society where no-one could give two hoots about them. I'd also question whether Sam B would be any more in demand for the after-dinner circuit in Britain as an ex England RU man than he would in Sydney as an ex-RL star, and at least in the latter case he'd know he'd earned the accolade.

I think it's almost as weird as it's disappointing. But I'd love to hear some kind of official response from the RL authorities rather than the stock "we can always find another one" tosh that we get treated to whenever this happens. I'm fed up to the back teeth with their bloody inertia in the face of this problem.

I'm going to answer this as a RL player who has played both sports. I'll put myself in SB shoes.

Rugby League
- Super League
- NRL
- 4 Nations
- Ashes (rarity these days)
- World Cup (3 teams with a decent shout)
- GB Lions Tour? (essentially England)
- Decent media coverage
- Decent wages
- Half filled stadia unless big games (applies internationally as well)

Rugby Union
- British & Irish Lions Tours
- 6 Nations
- Calcutta Cup
- World Cup
- Heineken Cup
- Packed out stadia
- Heavy media coverage
- Obscene wages

It's a no brainer. I would rather play RL but internationally give me RU any day. That's why he's gone, not to play Aviva Premiership with Bath but the chance to play 6 Nations, GB&I Lions, Heineken Cup. The chance to play an actual meaningful international game in packed out stadiums. You can't tell me you've not been sat at home watching England at Twickenham, seen it packed out, heard the stadium singing to Swing Lo' Sweet Chariot and thought "I wish RL was like that". I do.

I don't blame him TBH. I'm gutted but it's a testament to the poor state of RL internationally and at SL level that this has occurred. I'd say it's time for a complete overhaul at RFIL but that time has been and gone.

It would be interesting to compare a top NRL players salary and a top premiership rugby union player i bet its not much different at all, one thing is they have just poached England rugby leagues best player and they know he will attract a hell of a lot of media attention so i wouldn't be surprised if he's being paid more than some of the England RU stars.

I would also predict he won't be in union for the 2019 world cup. He is going over there to play in the 2015 world cup and 2016 olympics 7s and then will leave.

I’ve often wondered why the six nations are so well frequented seeing as the game is so obviously mind numbingly boring, and all I can come up with is that for the blokes anyway it’s a top day out with the lads for a blow out, and booze up, and there’s nowt wrong with that. But don’t tell her indoors.

I haven't been to twickenham personally but i know a lot of people who have and its exactly that, along with the old 'catch up with some of the lads who i haven't seen since school". Plus the women love the social day out because they can have a meal in the restaurants there and a natter. If you watch it on Tv with the same people they will talk about the game but ask them how was it when they have attended and all you hear is all the drinking the stories and the night out after the game.

I reckon if you quizzed all the people who watch an England RU game at Twickers more than half wouldn't have known what happened during the game.

When it pans to the crowd you have an upper middle class couple in their 40's wearing wax jackets or a cricket jumper wrapped over their shoulders with a floppy haircut actually turn around from chatting to Giles and Gloria to actually realise there's a game on and their on TV and start singing "By jove, ho rah, swing low swift claridges, coming 40 acres by jove'. Rah, rah, rah" Much like John Inverdale.

I thought this was a stereotype until I saw these types (of which there are many). A lot were seen on the car park of Twickers. Parked up in their brand new top of the range 4x4's, back doors open....chairs, blankets, straw picnic boxes quaffing and drinking Pimms / Champers.

Lets just say, theres more of those types than there are the Northern sterotype of bloke stood at rugby league events with whippet, ferret on a string, betting slip in one hand and pint of bitter in the other, woodbine in corner of gob!

Ah t'twickers lot't have us t'northerns down to a t'tea bart 'ferrett. Sorry I sound like John t'Kear.

I'd rather have a woodbine than pimms, oh I'd rather have a woodbine, rather have a woodbine, rather have a woodbine than a pimms.