18-18 not a good result

Excellent first half but they really did collapse after Sam went off and Roby came on.

Kevin Brown was absolute s**t. Robinson did quite well though i was impressed by him. Joel made a lot of tackles and Sam was dangerous as usual. Atkins played well in the first half too i thought.

Playing Hooker yes but once he replaced Sam at 7 and Roby returned to 9 the attack we had was a big fat zero. Brown was too quiet!

Full Time: New Zealand 50 Samoa 6 - NZ missed at least 5 goals, Samoan try in the 78th minute.

Carmont and Hansen both played for Samoa. Leuluai played 7 for NZ and claimed a try.

The wheels totally came off when they changed it around a bit. Thats just showed that if we dont play Sam in the halves we will get totally battered imo.

Agreed. Both Robinson and Brown were bouncing off the first tackles on kick chases, which for me is worrying, as their back 3 weren't the biggest or quickest today. Having said that towards the end everyone was dropping off normal tackles, which says to me we are going to see runaway scores at the end of our next two matches. We will see but I'm really not hopeful atm.

thought robinsion looked good at hooker, brown was shocking and was targeted in defence. Thought Joel was strong aswell. Crabtree looked good at prop but we can't do anything because we have no reserve halves. Id be tempted to play Tomkins and O'Loughlin at 6 and 7 and move burgess to 13.

Despite the first half I still feel if the Maori were playing NZ or Australia, with the field position and possession they would have been 30 + up.

The capitulation after Tomkins went off was shocking. He is already the most important English player and this highlighted it.

Brown and Robinson at this level as halves are truly woeful. Robinson did ok at hooker against broken play but as an organiser and pivot both were poor.

Early in the second have we tried to complex ruck plays with a view to the next few weeks which did not quite come off, but if we are going to stand any chance I think this is where we will look to expose the NRL players so it needed practice and I hope they continue it in training as I feel there is value there.

Atkins was solid and strong running although his winger will get 0 ball. If Gleeson is not superior to Shenton then I must be watching a different code.

1 player who I feel is built for International rugby is Crabtree, always impresses me. SL defences seem to have worked him out a little but due to lack of exposure to the NRL players he always seems a handful for them, long may it continue.

The last 20 was disgraceful though, Tomkins off the field = no creativity and no threat which allowed the Maori back into the game, our kicking with him off the field was a key element in allowing them back also.

Sam Tomkins on the field - 18-0
Off the field - 0-18

Nuff said really.

Kevin Brown woeful.

However, how that first disallowed try was classed as a England knock on, i'll never know.

I'd love us to sign Robinson back and use him at hooker; I've always though that it's his best position.

Not seen the game yet, I'll watch the recording later.

Slightly side topic, but did anyone notice the maori didnt have their own names on the back of their shirts



Wondering if they have ' traditional ' names or something ?

Kevin Brown *sigh*. If only that thug Carmont didnt take Danny McGuire out .....

[Warning.

Not looking good for England according to a poster on the International Forum. Morley's injury could rule him out of the 4 nations and Tomkins has a bit of a groin problem.

We may be able to cover Morley with Graham and Fielden (plus Sam Burgess / Westwood can play prop) We're really going to struggle for half backs if Sam can't play.

I think we can take quite a lot of positives from the game. The pack stood up pretty well, considering we were missing Morley for most of the game, and still have Graham & Fielden to come in. Roby & Robinson look to have secured the hooking spots (Robbo was a lot less effective when moved to half-back). Widdop had a good game at full back (and goal-kicking), and of course Sam in the halves.

The problems, as expected, start with who joins Sam in the Halves; Brown was hopeless, and there are few other options. The other problem, again as we all expected, is the threequarters. Presumably Goulding will come in after Hall's nightmare, which will strengthen things, but it still looks worrying.

Much as I don't like playing Lockers at #6, he's better than all the other options, IMO, and we have enough back row forwards for one of them to fill in at #13.

1. Widdop
2. Goulding
3. Shenton
4. Atkins
5. Briscoe

6. O'Loughlin
7. Sam Tomkins

8. Fielden
9. Roby
10. Morley
11. Ellis
12. Joel Tomkins
13. Burgess

14. Robinson
15. Graham
16. Crabtree
17. Westwood

England looked very leggy in the last 20-25 minutes, which could be put down to jetlag, plus Morley not returning meaning Crabtree and Griffin doing long spells. Realistically with the squad that we've got I think England need to play at their absolute best and hope that the Aussies and Kiwis have an off day if we're going to get to this final

Wha? You do that, you get absolutely flogged. Very unfair on Tomkins too.

What's the other options?
No McGuire, no Eastmond, no Myler.

I just dont know about O'Loughlin at 6, it reminds me of the times trying Farrell, Sculthorpe and Clarke there which never really worked. However it is a definite improvement on Brown and we have little in the way of alternatives so it is worth a go.

Shenton is a player that does not impress me one bit and I am glad that we didnt try to sign him, I would probably give Cudjoe a chance instead. Hall should never have been picked in the first place for this game as he has been poor this season, as he was again in this game, and Goulding should take his place. Widdop just doesnt look ready at this level and imo his lack of top flight Rugby shows.

The worst aspect for me was the fact that this New Zealand Maori team was quite poor and we should have won easily, especially after having the bulk of territory and possession in the first half and winning 18-0 at half time. Our forwards which is supposedly our strong point should have completely dominated and didnt. I dont think jet lag is a factor either to simply explain that 2nd half, Australia and New Zealand come to England time and time again and never collapse in that way. The way we collapsed was reminiscent of the final last year when we were fantastic for 60 mins then got battered in the last 20 mins when we were dead on our feet.

They had their 'English' surname at the top in green and below was their 'Maori' surname in white.

Huh? Roby was on during the first half as well. Unless I was watching another match at 5.20 this morning!

We definitely collapsed in attack after Sam went off, yes, because he is our only playmaker (with Robinson having a good go). Brown is nowhere near international standard. But our other classier halfbacks are injured so we had little choice given that Brough is clearly persona non gratia.

We tired in defence during the second half but we were down to two interchanges and one prop gone so it's hardly surprising. However, both Hall and Atkins are poor defensively which means that's the wing the Kiwis and Aussies are going to target.

I dont see why Goulding and Gleeson arent picked to play down our right hand side. It has worked all season for us, yet he insists on picking Atkins?! If Sam is injured then we are fooked for next week. Thought the Wigan lads played well, especially Joel, would be interested to see how many tackles he made.

Widdop - Solid. Our best FB when Sam is in the halves by a long way.
Briscoe - Ok in defence but got no ball.
Atkins - Powerful going forwards, doesn't know how to defend. Good job Inglis isnt playing for AUS.
Shenton - Average, sums him up. Big(ish), average speed & no ball skills.
Hall - Big and strong, no sidestep ruins his wingplay.
Brown - 10/10 for the best Leon Pryce impersonator ever. Where was he?
S Tomkins - Looked threatening but wasted at first receiver.
Morley - Did ok for 8 minutes.
Roby - Not good enough for International level, lacks pace. Robinson looked far better.
Griffin - Why is he in an England shirt?
Ellis - Good player, too many silly errors in this game.
Burgess - Great forward to have, probably our best going forward.
O'Loughlin - Ok performance. Better than sinfield.

Crabtree - Fantastic. Great player to have in the jersey.
J Tomkins - Looked jetlagged. Did a lot of defensive work.
Westwood - Average. Big and Strong but nothing else.
Robinson - Great performance, should be ahead of Roby IMO.

Well, given our lack of half backs, there aren't many more options. Brown is clearly out of his depth.
The only other option might be to play Lunt at hooker and Robbo in the halves with Sam, but that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence either.