I don't think getting rid of Noble is going to solve anything - Although I do think that he's making some very bad decisions - Has anyone else noticed that as soon as Riddell goes off and Micky comes on, the play slows waaaay down - He shouldn't be playing if you ask me, he should be sending Tommy to 9, and bringing Smith on with Sam Tomkins - The Saints game ended up slowing down as soon as Riddell went off, same happened in France.

Also, playing Pryce? Why? You've got a young lad sat at home who would do anything to play for Wigan, and they've sent him on loan to Salford - Karl Pryce should not have been playing in that game - Ainscough was doing all his work, whilst Pryce was blowing out his ar$e... These, if you ask me, are bad decisions by Noble... So when someone says that 'Noble is to blame', I can agree to an extent.

Agree that getting rid of Noble won't solve any immediate problems.
Also agree that TL should go to 9 when Piggy is spelled.
As for Karl Pryce, I do think he was worth a punt at Catalan. He kept Steve Bell quiet.
Quite a laugh when the Catalan player came running in to crash tackle Pryce and simply bounced off him. First the crowd cheered then groaned all in the same voice.
Goulding will benefit from a loan spell at Salford.
I do wonder how Pryce would go if he got the same number of games under his belt as Goulding.
Both will be at Wigan for some years I feel!

Said that for weeks now he needs to go out on loan to speed his passing game up

Keeping Lockers on as captain.

Worst decison ever.

How can you say that? LOL O'loughlin has been amazing this season - Best player by far at the Catalan game

Normally I would scoff at this.

However.


I am genuinely interested in why you would say that.



I can cite about 4 reasons why he was awful.


Tell why I am wrong. Please do.

Noble was always going to get slated for the pryce thing. The guy can't do anything right in some peoples eyes. If Pryce has a stormer then its "why didnt he play him earlier...as it happened he had a shocker and now Noble shouldn't have played him. Lose Lose mr noble

Lord love rocket or should I say Shauns mum? he had a superb game on Thursday but back to normal v Catalan. Truly he loves playing for Wigan but like Hock playing with heart and without skill does not work.

Tbh Hock has talent.


I just wish he knuckled down and applied himself more.


That said whatever he does, he will be a talent.


The reality about Lockers is that he is an average player who, in fairness, applies himself quite well.

The problem is that as he is an average talent, when it fails to "come together", then he is exposed.

Actually I seriously doubt it. More likely you can 'cite' 4 things you saw as mistakes...mistakes that everyone in the team was making. No-one was good on Monday but O Loughlin was among the best of a bad bunch. His work rate and desire alone account for that. As usual you have a seriously unbalanced view of this player (and it saddens me to add) so no change there.

Sadly they don't.



If I am honest, given the constraints of the CC I would have Lockers in my team.

He would be in the SR as a "squad player". Nothing special but would do a job.

He certainly would not be captain.

Go on who do we put as captain, someone who has played absolutly brilliant in every game this season, who works his socks off in attack and in defense, who loves playing for wigan, and whos always gonna be under the shadow of a relative

Now this is interesting. In your 'reasoned' opinion, our top tackler (let's call him Mick Cassidy for the sake of argument and to take away any bias) who's desire and effort to the cause cannot be faulted would not be regarded as 'among the better players' even from that abject display on Monday.

As for the other points, he would most definitely be in my squad (also at SR) on his defence alone. If of course you don't regard the likes of Mick Cassidy and his ilk as anything more than 'squad players' then your judgement isn't as good as I took it to be. Every team needs the right balance and makeup of which O Loughlin's type of player is one. It's unfortnate that in this given team he's expected by such as yourself (and I suspect the coaching staff) to be and do more than that and gets criticised for 'not being Andy Farrell or Ellery Hanley'! The reason I put such comments as 'it saddens me to say' when I post regarding this is I would, under normal circumstances, expect someone such as yourself to see past this ridiculous expectation and see the value of a player for what he actually does rather than who he isn't! Again, perhaps I'm giving you credit where , perhaps, it isn't due. C'est la vie.

As for the captaincy issue, I have no axe to grind one way or the other, as I have posted many times before. However, I do know if we were a winning team filled with winning players with a winning mentality his captaincy would never be called into question by anyone...yourself included.

I'm not sure where to start here, as a lot of the points we agree on.


I guess firstly to confirm that we both think he is a SR and should start in the team. Right that's where we agree.


Is he a captain? Never in a million years. Sadly he just doesn't have "it". Many's the time our team has been crying out for a leader to turn it around on the field. Lockers hasn't done it. Now, whether he does it by "leading by example" or bollocking the people on the pitch I don't mind. But sadly he hasn't done it.


I don't expect him to be Faz or Hanley, that would be silly, but equally I will tell it how I see it. He's an average player.

Tbh, comparing him to Cas is wrong imo. Cas was a better player, but hey that's the CC for you.


As I have said on a number of occasions I would like Lockers to move to SR, be relieved of the captaincy, concentrate on his game and produce the workhorse displays that I think he is capable of.


It's easy to be a "captain" when everything is going well ( I can tell you I have seen more examples of this than you could shake a stick at).

The true value of a captain comes through when things are going wrong.

Faz excelled at this (more than any footballer I have seen in the last 25 years). Lockers is hopeless.


Sorry, but that's how I see it m8.

I'll 'do a DaveO' and take it point by point! lol



Where, at International level he has been (even by your own admission on several occassions) outstanding, able to mix it with the very best in the world and receiving the plaudits of the Aussie media and pundits alike, not to mention opposition fans on these very forums!

How does that equate with 'being average' as you describe him? The point being, of course, he didn't have the ridiculous expectations put on him and was asked only to do what he does well. No scrap that. Exceptionally well.



I'm not really going to argue the captaincy issue as, if we actually had a Faz (or a Bell or Hanley for that matter) he wouldn't be captain anyway. However, I still haven't heard a viable alternative from our current playing roster. Some even suggested Fielden at the start of the season. How stupid is that looking right now?




See my first response with regards to him 'being avarage'. I think most of your criticisms that I've seen on here stem from comparisons to the above, so to say you don't expect that of him, I think you would have to admit if you were being honest, is simply not true. In fact, it's the main area that I find you blinkered on this as I believe if you took him on his merits rather than constantly comparing him to those greats you'd actually have a more balanced view on him. Just my opionion of course...





The second quote negates the first in my opinion as the 'workhorse displays' you mention where the hallmark of Cassidy's career. I would also say that O Loughlin has proven himself at international level better than Mick. I'm sure for example, but correct me if I'm wrong, that MC never won a MOM at International level. Nevertheless I'm not here to debate the relative merits of the 2 players as I think they were/are both geat servants of this Wigan club. Unfortunately for O Loughlin, one operated from within the greatest sports team of it's generation (any sport) while the other is Sean O' Loughlin!



Agree with all of that apart from the Lockers is hopeless comment. Not as good as his predecessors, definitely; struggling to impose himself during the matches, maybe... but we don't know the extent of his influence off the pitch and in training where I believe he is excellent. I do know that he is universally admired by the players and staff, past and present, so he must do some things right! Hopeless is simply too harsh a criticism and is borne of your lack of balance. I'll take 'not my kind of captain' or 'not what we need right now' or, in fact, anything that takes all things into account. Hopless doesn't do him (or you as a poster) justice. There's another of those 'opinions' of course but there you go!



Perhaps surprisingly, this is where we disagree most! I don't think you do see it that way because when I've had discussions with you in the past regarding O' Loughlin you've been able to take a more reasoned view. You have also shown during these brief posts that you see his value to the team, even if it was damned in faint praise! I actually think you have a 'knee jerk' reaction when it comes to Lockers, one seemingly shared by quite a few people on these boards. As I've said previously, I think it is borne of 'unreasonable comparison' and, again as I've said in the past, let's you down as a poster in my opinion.

Phil.

You spoilt your post with this bit I feel, we're not winning, we don't have a winning mentality and at times like this we need a captain who will turn things round, be the one who keeps fighting and spurring his players on. When Wigan are poor Lockers rarely stands out as the one trying to turn the tide round. In fact at times when all we need is to calm down and have a bit of composure Lockers is the one who goes and gives a penalty away for niggling in the tackle.

Don't get me wrong I like Lockers and his work rate in defence is awesome and he runs in hard but he's not an ideal captain when the chips are down.

I may get shot for this but if Noble hasn't got the balls to drop Fielden then making him captain might give him the kick up the backside he needs, although this goes against my principles in a big way.

In my opinion anyone that rates Hock as a talent over Locky is firstly looking out for the eye catching play and secondly ignoring the massive weakness of player.

Hock were i the coach would be the first player out of the door were I coach at this stage in time. Going forward can be good, but generally has poor ball retention, makes poor decisions and is a lazy defender.

The lad is basically a coach killer, crowd favorite for an occasional cameo apperance, but very little substance to him.

You miss the point. I said if we had the above his captaincy wouldn't be in question. I wasn't arguing that he's the man to give us this.

I pretty much agree with this and have argued it in the past, he has the ability to look amazing but in my opinion he has lost us more games than he has won. Lack of composure is one of our biggest problems and Hock is one of the worst at keeping his. In a winning team Hock would get a place in the side every week but I feel he is a luxury we cannot afford at the moment.

Well I am NOT going to cut and paste




Suffice to say:


Lockers is an average player. He has occasional "above average" matches, but you have to balance this against his "rubbish matches" and rubbish plays.


e.g. vs Catalans last week. Stupid penalty---> First try to Le Cats.


Ultimately he is average. I have uprated him in my estmation to being a "OK squad player" from a player I would have nowhere near my team.


However, he is still average.

Capatain wise- there is not really an argument there is there?

I don't buy the "universally admired" rubbish. It's easy to be admired by a team who are not pulling their weightl


I don't care how hard he trains, how much he "impresses" off the pitch.

The reality is he fails to deliver as a captain on it. I have provided evidence to support my stance.

e.g. as a supporter of Lockers, how can you possibly explain the slow walk to the scrum at 24-14 down?

If I was the coach, I would sack the captain as a matter of course after this.



Tbh I really don't care how much u (or anyone else) rates me as a "poster". I will always call it as I see it.

The difference between the NRL and SL and our ability to compete at the national level is brains, Hock is the pesonification of a player who could physically be anything he wants but lacks the brains. Sadly i think as a sport we have some of the best physical specimins but not the brains to back this up.

To a degree you are right.


However, you are also wrong.


RL needs game breakers (especially thesedays). Hock is just that.


Lockers is also massively overrated as a defender.

He get's into the right position, but fails in technique and also gives away too many penalties.

Yeah I know what you said and didn't miss the point at all, you were right in what you said but it was taking stating the obvious to new levels. Which fan of a club who is winning everything and had no problems would even think of getting a new captain? Nobody but what does this prove. Its like saying if mathers never made a mistake, never got sent off and was top try scorer he would still be at Wigan. If I wrote that, however true it was I would expect people to start questioning my intelligence.

Hock is not a gamebreaker, he is a lad who occasionally brings something to the party but more often than not on big plays comes up with the wrong option.

Fletcher at Wigan was a simillar player but he was a leader not a natural player and came up with dumb plays at important times but he got stuck in in defence. Hock needs to either move forward to Prop and put some effort in and defend or move on.

He lacks the brains to be a strike secondrow and always will sadly.