Ups and downs like any player but how a SoO player is dropping those balls I don't know.

Charnley for me is an absolute disgrace. Commentators blaming Sarge for passing. Rubbish. Charnley is the epitome of an auto-pilot player. He must be on a good wage and he's done nothing to earn it.

Crosby offered nothing at all. Completely anonymous.

O'Loughlin is knackered and again is just taking up a place in the squad at this point. I see no suitable replacement either.

Saints were alright and probably would have still won it, but that was gifted to them. Embarassed of that.

Felt sorry for Bowen tonight. Still has the occasional touch of class about him (see Magic Weekend) but is so full of errors and his confidence is rock bottom. Major problem for Wigan at fullback until Sam comes back.

Poster above wasn't watching the game, Crosby went well.

First one was a terrible bounce, second was just poor.

We gifted them that game, stupid errors followed by a penalty that then lead to a try, embarrassing performance. Saint thoroughly deserved it, they did nothing fancy, they just didn't play as dumb as we did.

I'm confused, didn't Ben "worth thirty points" Flower play tonight?

Just one of those days. Sad it had to come in a derby though. I don't think Saints made a mistake in that second half (?) and we gave them 22 points on a plate.

And this is why I wish Shaun Wane would shut up.

FWIW I thought he had a decent game but could've done more minutes.

Cunningham said in his interview we completed at 95% in the second half so one error I'd imagine. Always hard to compete with that considering the size of our pack. Bowen had a shocker though, which I was quite surprised by considering how well he played against Leeds. Don't think he was helped by reasonably lax kick pressure though from your forwards.

Does Waney go with Bowen v Salford, Hampshire, or try someone new at full back?

One try was from a bad bounce, the other was a dreadful drop from a lousy kick from Saints. Not one of their players within 10 yards when he dropped it.

Waney's between a rock and a hard place with his full back position.

Team game and the 'team' was appalling tonight. We dominated the first 25 mins and should have been 20 points clear but we bombed chance after chance. They desperately need to wake up and produce something. The team plays in the image of its coach and things needs to change.

In all honesty going back to the fullback issue we simply must start to play a safe option at fullback. As soon as Manfredi is back I'd put him or Burgess in there.

I'm not convinced Burgess or Manfredi's passing/pass selection is good enough for them to play fullback in the style Wigan need. Your entire structure with the three or four second man plays is obviously based around getting the fullback on an edge with a gap for the fullback, centre or winger. If your fullback can't pick the right option consistently, that structure is a bit limited. I'd go with Hampshire. He's not rock solid under kicks but the more he gets used to playing at fullback the better that will get, and he's a genuine ball-playing option. He's also too talented to be sitting out most weeks.

I don't think full-back is even our most concerning position. We need Gelling back as Tomkins' defence is dreadful (ditto Charnley) and Matty Smith was absolutely anonymous again.

Only listened to the game on Wish FM, but imo Wane made some glaring team selection errors. He said a few weeks ago how he needed to manage Bowen's "old legs": Bowen should thus not have played both last Sunday against Huddersfield and then backed up tonight with only 4 days rest. Hampshire should have played one of the games. Maybe Wane felt he couldn't rest Bowen after his match winning performance against Leeds, but a smarter coach may well have made the tough (and as it turned out correct) decision.
Wigan had a big bench against Leeds ( ie 4 props/second rows and no Powell) and this worked very well. Sutton should have been on the bench tonight instead of Powell and MM should have played most of the game - as he did against Leeds.
And surely Rocky deserves to be given a chance at 6 with Williams at 7 - their rightful places. I am afraid Smith was very anonymous yet again - poor kicking out of hand and missing conversions he should be getting. He may be "experienced" but that does not seem to add much to the team performance.
Some appalling individual errors resulted in the defeat but would they have happened if the team selection had been different? Would a fresh Bowen have had a stormer like he did against Leeds rather than a shocker if he hadn't played last Sunday?

Burns kicked us to death tonight. When was the last time Smith had a game like that? As said above, we need to give Hampshire and Williams a go in the halves. As for fb, there's no safe option. I wonder how Tierney is getting on. Anyone know?

Same old problem. Wigan's pack gave up in the face of sustained and overwhelming physicality. Blaming Wigan's backs - even Bowen (who I have a certain degree of sympathy for) is silly.

If Wigan had even half the raw muscle, grit and fighting spirit that Wane's GF winning pack possessed we'd might as well wrap up the title and hand it to you.

THe odd thing is - Wane knows this truth as well as anyone. Only he can explain why he's de-emphasised the importance of a rock-solid platform on which to build pressure. I mean, anyone who knows the slightest thing about Matty Smith's playing history will recognise that he is a "big pack" scrum half. At Saints he was always at his best when we could put out our biggest pack. He thrives buzzing in and around huge, yardage making props - coaxing, cajoling and spurring them on to greater effort whilst all the time keeping a watchful eye out for the opportunity to make either long raking kicks for territory or deft little grubbers for the full-back or left-centre to chase onto.

I was not one of those people who laughed at the decision to purchase Smith because he is a good player. Not world class. But who is in this league? The point is - Smith would have fitted seamlessly into a Wigan side with the same tactical ethos and playing style that the club ALREADY possessed coming off the back of GF success.

Everyone talks about Sam Tomkins, but the real star of that season was Wigan's forward pack. It was undoubtedly one of the strongest, most physical and tigerishly competitive ever seen in SL. If ever you needed a pattern for how best to go about attacking a long and gruelling league and playoff campaign it existed - RIGHT UNDER WANE'S NOSE.

Signing Matty Smith should have taken you one more rung up the ladder. Which makes Wane's subsequent decision to completely abandon the cornerstone of everything the club achieved that season so utterly perplexing. I really am struggling to think of a coach who has so radically overhauled his coaching style.

I mean, Millward did something similar when he decided to go for a more mobile, multi-skilled pack of forwards. But it wasn't as though Saints were lacking in that department anyway. Millward merely cranked it up a notch and overbalanced the side.

Of course, it could be that Wane was always so inclined and his initial success was entirely a product of McGuire's making. But I can't imagine Wigan would be happy selecting a coach who'd prefer to sit back and leave the ghost of his predecessor to run the club for a season.

I'm completely baffled by the whole thing. Of course, it's not impossible for Wigan to rescue the situation in time for the GF. But unless something fundamental changes in that pack with players suddenly turning into supermen and Wigan's playing style shifting to one which stresses building a platform of possession and territorial dominance BEFORE slinging the ball hither and thither I'm not sure it's possible without some freak intervention of chance.

If you had watched a video, which you won't have done since you aren't a Wigan fan, on Wigan TV when Wane got the gig you would not be the least bit surprised about Wane's "subsequent decision to completely abandon the cornerstone of everything the club achieved that season" because he came out and said he was going to just that . He was convinced what went before wasn't good enough.

I was Gobsmacked. I thought appointing Madge's assistant would ensure continuity. Alas not.

Bloody hell a decent post from you

I agree with a lot of what you said especially about our tatics and its my big gripe with Wane he coaches us to just throw the ball around willy nilly and constantly going lateral regardless of field position, instead of earning the right to spread the ball by going forward first. Also our discipline is shocking and as not been addressed through out the season.
We also have too many average players who are not good enough for a team looking to compete for trophies. Wane should be given to the end of the season and if we win nothing which I don't think we will, he should be replaced IMO

Classic "your pack isn't good enough" post from the Mug. Don't you even get bored of typing it all out again yourself every time we lose a match?

I'll stop typing it when someone at Wigan sees the elephant in the room which has been trampling over the fixtures and furnishings all season and finally shoves it out of the door. What do you wan't me to say - Wigan lost because Jupiter is currently in the constellation of Sagittarius?

If it'll make you happier I could just type "YOU LOST. LOLZ!!!!!"

I've been thinking about Wigan's strength in the pack all season and, to be honest, I'm still undecided on whether this is a problem of personnel or tactics.

In any normal side it would be an easy question to answer because the forwards (especially the props) dominate possession of the ball. I'm always wary of over-emphasizing the importance of statistics - but if after ten games you have three props whose stats are broadly similar whilst the other's are way off the curve (and this player isn't some kind of short-duration, "impact" forward) then it doesn't require a degree in rocket science to realise where the problem lies.

But Wane's tactical approach is anything but "normal". Earlier this season I drew a bit of flak for poking fun at Tony Clubb's stats in the Leeds game (as well as Mossop's and Tautai's) - which amounted to a pathetic 3 carries for ten or twenty yards. Joking aside - the point I was making was serious. For a prop forward in a BIG game against one of Wigan's closest rivals these figures were mind-boggling. The first time I saw them I literally did a double-take. I figured he must have gone off injured but I distinctly remembered him being on the field for a good while.

Figures such as Clubb's which, whilst representing the very bottom of the statistical spread, are by no means unusual this season, really do crystallize Wane's attacking philosophy - which I see as one which views prop forward play as little more than a functional necessity - like the play-the-ball. Something to be completed as quickly as possible so that the team can resume attacking play. But they also make it difficult to gauge whether a prop is performing well or not because statistical averages, which are the bedrock of performance indicators in any walk of life, are effectively worthless when the data set isn't sufficiently large (hence the term "statistical significant"icon_wink.gif.

Currently Wigan have, what, six ... seven props (including youngsters)? We're at the end of a long season and right now I couldn't say with any certainty whether any of them are any good or not. The stats suggest not - but Wane's philosophy of putting the ball anywhere but in their hands makes it very difficult for any of them who really are champion material to look good in the stats column - or certainly going forward.

Whether the likes of Clubb or Mossop are champion material I'm not sure. But I'm certain both would be performing considerably better under a more conservative coach. This DOES NOT mean I think Wigan should completely abandon its thrilling attacking style. That would be stupid - not to mention a gross misuse of talent. When I say "conservative" I'm using the word relatively. A good marker to aim for would be the one currently laid down by Tony Smith at Warrington. Retirements and injury mean they don't quite have the personnel this season but I think Smith still strikes the right balance of forward steel vs clinically executed width.

Let's get over the knee jerk stuff and look at it in the cold light of day.

In my opinion there are several key reasons why we lost the match last night and it had little to do with the coach.

Our pack is taking a lot of criticism but it personally felt out Props and the prop rotation was excellent. Our issue in the pack is the lack of size in the Secondrow caused by Tomkins covering the centre. Patrick is one of the worst signings we have ever made and in truth he needs to not play again for us regardless of injuries. Faz and Bateman are both very good players but too easy for defences to cope with if they are both in the field.

A major element of the loss can clearly be put down to individual errors however our spine and leadership came up short yesterday in my opinion at crucial times. 9,13,7,6 and 1 really failed to take the Gabriel by the scruff of the neck and offer a composed response to the Saints pressure. Clearly Bowen has a stinker on a couple of occasions but we lacked control throughout which is more worrying. Williams did reasonably well but Lockers and especially Smith were below par last night when we needed to be calmed down and controlled in the face of Saints pressure.

Final thought is on Charnley. I don't know what is wrong with him and it is a real shame to see at the moment but he is a shadow of the player he once was. Offers nothing in attack and is poor in defence. Not worth a spot in the 17 for me even without Manfredi.

Spot on jonh best post so far,

The problem I have with Bowen is his inability to play well under pressure. How many times did we see him dropping balls like he did last night in big games? I could possibly excuse it if he was a young player starting out, but this lad has played over a decade in the NRL I just can't comprehend how he made those errors last night, it's mind boggling.

Hampshire may have also dropped that high bomb, but at least Hampshire offers a bit of spark in attack, Bowen offered absolutely zero last night.

I'd agree with the points made about Josh, don't know what's happened to him but he didn't look interested last night.

Yes, agreed, jonh. One of the good things this season has been the development of Williams, after a shaky start, into a talented half. But in a big game like last night, he was entitled to more help and support from Lockers and Smith.

As for Bowen, he has shown occasional moments of class, but overall just hasn't been good enough in defence and doesn't offer enough in attack. Frankly hope he doesn't play again. Rocky or Sarge has to be a better option. Or Stefan Ratchford, of course!

Take the anti Bowen blinkers off. He had a bad bounce to deal with then dropped the easy bomb just like Hampshire has done all season. I admit to getting angry when players lose their footing as he did twice (wear proper studs FFS) but he made a couple of excellent tackles and displayed beautiful hands for one of our tries. Was he good enough on the night? No, like many others. However, to say he "offered absolutely zero" is incorrect. Another poster mentioned that SW was supposed to be managing him but all he has done is play him full time. Good coaching?
As for the rest, others have pointed out Charnley and SOL being pale imitations of what they were but who else could SW pick? My biggest gripe is that I'm getting sick of seeing MM being criminally underused by SW. He should be playing far, far longer than he is IMO.

Charnley looks like he's spent too much time in the weight room. Seems very leaden-footed. Has done for a good year or so.