stop getting your knickers in a twist, I can see what he is saying. He measures progress by tangible achievements (ie trophies) and not simply by league position which means nothing in RL due to the way the league is structured (with playoffs and a grand final).

Put it this way. (example) If you finish 4th this year and win the GF, but next year fnish top and win nothing, you could arguably say that you made no progression at all if trophies is how you measure progress.

It's all in the interpretation. I'm sure BK will agree that Wigan are better off at this stage of the comp than last year, but that will count for little if Wigan fail in the Playoffs.

Likewise with Warrington. If we fail to win any silverware this year whilst gaining our best league finish for quite some time, some may argue that our progress has stalled, though our consistency has improved.

but we've won more games so we have improved relative to the competition. Anyway this is getting silly, have you enjoyed watching wigan more this season than last year and isn't being more entertaining a key area in terms of spectator sport in general. I know exactly what you mean by your argument but I don't understand why you feel the need to argue it. Given your views on Madge you can surely see why people are sceptical regarding the motives for your argument. There are many more measures of improvement than your simplistic argument and if you've been watching the same Wigan as I have this year you'd know that too.

Yes I have enjoyed watching Wigan this season than last.

There are lot's of measures of improvement, but only one that is factual and objective.


We are out of the CC, but hey, that can happen to any team.

We are in with a great chance of getting to the GF. If we do then that will be progress.

I do not accept, like some on here, that finishing 4th in the playoffs will be progress.


I'm not sure what you mean by my "views" on Madge. I said at the start of the season that he was untested. He was imo. I am very pleased to say that he seems to be performing very well.

The proof will come when it comes to the playoffs and I sincerely hope I can post on here and say "I don't know why I was worried, winning the GF in his first year is a major achievement".

What would you say if we win playoff 1, but not 2 due to a funny bounce or a dodgy refereeing decision? Would that be progress?

I would say it wouldn't be as a good team will not leave it to luck.

scoring more tries, more points, winning more games, losing less games, finishing higher in the table are all as factual and objective as winning a trophy and could just as much indicate that all other teams have gone backwards so in actual fact the subjective opinion that we are playing more attractive rugby could possibly have more merit than any of the above arguments. Your definition of progress based effectively on the outcome of one game or possibly one debatable penalty is far too simplistic. If being a rugby fan was all about trophies nobody would watch any of the clubs outside the top 6.