Quote ="DaveO"If Phelps attack is worth more than his few errors in defence the same definitely was true of Ainsough last season but some people were having none of it. I am simply drawing the obvious parallel.
And Roberts defensive problems were easily as bad if not worse than Ainscoughs. Roberts made some absolute howlers and you saying they were nowhere near as many as Ainscough just perpetuates the myth Ainscough was some sort of defensive liability IMO which he wasn't.
It's clear the "his attacking skill outweigh his defensive liabilities" is only applies when it suits
and given you were talking about a full back I'd have thought it even more applicable to a winger.
This excuse he was on the wrong wing ignores the fact when he did get clean ball he failed to make good use of it far too often. Attacking ability is something you form an opinion about by more than just tries scored. Ainscough was dangerous when he got the ball whereas Roberts would often fail to back himself. He looks much better this year already but you can't rewrite history.
What are you on about now? I said we should not keep Phelps when his contract expires just because he is the best option we have. In other words just because he is the best option we have now does not mean that will be true come 2011 if better fullbacks are available to sign. I was not suggesting we had a better option at this point in time and if you read my post properly you will have read that I said Phelps has this season IMO to make a case for getting a new deal as our full back.
And saying Roberts defence is "far superior" is IMO ridiculous. First off and yet again Ainscough's defence was not a big problem. It got blown out of all proportion yet Roberts made mistakes that cost tries and at Wire was absolute rubbish. Defence last season was not Roberts strong point. In fact he didn't have a great deal going for him which is why there was plenty of debate about him.
I was not on about how he played on Friday but was simply making the point he was popular with some because he wasn't Higham despite looking like a lump of lard at times and in context that was just another example of opinions being biased despite what occurred on the pitch. If you want an opinion on his game last week he was nothing special IMO and he came up with a few errors e.g. managed to get the ball stolen off him three yards out and when he came on for his second spell passed the ball to the grass! It's early days but Roberts looks a different player. Riddell doesn't but it's only one game so we will have to see how he goes as the season goes on.
No but it is not impossible to have one or more what you might call star players in a SL side despite the cap. Other teams are able to sign these players and when the shackles we all think have held our recruitment of such plays back are off come 2011 it's going to be a big test of how persuasive IL is to get players to come here. In Mo's days there was always the cheque book but Leeds has an equally large one so it wasn't all just down to money why players chose to come here. IL needs to make the case even more so because the wages on offer will be similar to other clubs.
Will he replace the popular and enthusiastic Phelps like we ended up with Andy Gregory for Ford? Don't know but it's the sort of thing he needs to do if Phelps proves not to be the answer and only gets the no. 1 shirt because he is the best option we have in the side because that won't make him good enough ultimately.
Dave'"
Dave, your obiously far better than me at this quoting lark as last time I tried it took me Half an our! But here goes!
You were drawing paralels between the Phelps situation & The Ainscough situation of last year, I was pointing out there is 1 subtle difference.
Last Year Noble thought that Phelps/Richards/Roberts was a better option than Ainscough ousting any 1 of those 3. At least for now, so does Maguire. Where does that show that I am ignoring the "Positives outweigh the negatives" Argument when it suits?
So in short last year we had a better option than Ainscough, this year I was asking do we have a better option than Phelps, if we do then fair enough, lets change it.
Thats not me being hypocritical, that is me not comparing Apples & Oranges so to speak. You comparing the 2 situations is the problem because the 2 x situations aren't the same.
As far as I am concerned that means that unless we have a better option at Fullback for this year then for me Phelps plays, do You agree?
That also applies to every position in the team as every player has strengths & weaknesses & his selection will be based on the Merits of those & if we have anyone better to replace them.
As for Ainscough last year & This I agree with, that his positives outweigh his negatives, Never have disagreed with that,unfortunately for Him The coach of last year & the coach of this year thinks that Roberts/Richards/Phelps combination is better. If Ainscough were to play next week or at anytime over the next season I would be over the moon for the lad and I don't think it would affect us that much. It's just that ATM Certain people think Roberts (And I'm saying his name only this time cos I know what your trying to get at) is a better player.
That does not mean that They, I or anyone else thinks Ainscough is rubbish etc it's just that they feel He isn't the best option at this time.
As for saying that Roberts Looks like a different player this year, that's an opinion that I'm sure a few will have. However, I don't totally share that opinion as as far as I'm concerned Roberts was a better player last year also. Again I'm not saying Ainscough is no good etc etc but Obviously Noble felt the same. I take on board what yu say about different wings but FACTS show that our left wing pairing got far more ttries between them than our right wing for the past God Knows! Was that a failg of Noble's coaching? Probably, but we will never know if Ainscough would have scored 1/2 as many if any at all playing on the right or if Amos would have got double what Ainscough or Rivhards did.
Dave, you say "What the Hell am I on about now". 1st thing's 1st, there were a couple of people involved in the Phelps conversation at this time and maybe my response would have been better served up to them. Their view on the subject is that Phelps shouldn't be playing at all for us at FB this year, I was only pointing out that MM must have had some input into the resigning of Phelps as he was also advising us as early as last May on what props Not to sign!
My opinion is that he's better for theam than any other optiobn we have at the moment and until we have another option or unless MM thnks he can get us a better option then I think we stick with him.
I do agree that if we can get a better value £for£ FB from someshere then we should, but I also think there are other cogs in the Wheel that may need sorting first and not all can be changed at once.
I totally agree with your comments about finding 1 or 2 Marquee Named superstars and I do think we can get them, I just think that until The Fielden Salary stops to weigh us down we need to make sure we do the best for "The Squad".
My only slight argument is that when you quote Mo doing what he did he did it without the salary cap hanging over his head & when it did he didn't make the best job of it.
Also at the time he did pay out more to the likes of Gregory/Lydon/Goodway etc but then once we became the Top club he didn't need to entice players as much because they were clamouring to play for us as we were the Top Team.
IL doesn't have the benefit of either of these 2 x option ATM.
As for Piggy, my point Dave is that no matter what the situation, you can't resist bringing Piggy and/or Amos into the argument.
I thought he was OK 1st 30 (We were 20-0 up and looking good) and I thought we actually looked less organised when Tommy went to 9 (We won the next 30 12-6). Now I am not saying that the individual is responsible for the overall scoring patterns but I threw some stats up for Higham about 2 years ago when it looked like he wasnt staying. It showed that when Millard started we were in an arm wrsetle or in front 95% of the time after the 1st 20/25 minutes. When Higham started we were very often blown away in the 1st 20 and 95% of our good hidings we got in 2006/2007 were when Higham Started. Higham as an impact "Off the Bench" Hooker, fair enough, I don't think theres too many better (Maybe 2 or 3 IMO) but as astarting 9, I'm afraid not for me.
That is why I felt that we had to get a better starting 9, I think Piggy is that. Maybe he hasn't been all I thought he could be yet but he is certainly an improvement IMO. Now again, that is my opinion, I don't think it's that much of a crime especially when many others have that same opinion.
Now finally on the point were you think my comment about Roberts defence is "far superior" and you saying it "is IMO ridiculous".
Your entitled to that opinion, but I don't think it is Ridiculous. I'm just stating that I think Roberts is a Very Good All round Winger that reads the defensive side of the game "Very Well". If you think otherwise then fair enough. But if Ainscough is again so much better in attack but not much worse than Roberts in defence then why do Wigan coaches continue to pick Roberts?
That again just for clarification, does not mean that I think Ainscough is poor defensively, I just think that Roberts is Far better.
Quick question, Why do you think Maguire picks Roberts over Ainscough? & Who would you pick?
I am concious that words written down can often come across in a very different way than if they were being spoken so again Dave, I'm not looking for any kind of argument here, just stating my opinion that with the current squad, Phelps/Richards/Roberts is the best option we have.
And Unless you have the best 13 x players ine ach position then there will always somewhere you can improve by replacing them with someone else next year. I'm not so sure that doing too many of these changes in a short term period is the best option for this club under the restrictions the recruitment has to be done under.
and given you were talking about a full back I'd have thought it even more applicable to a winger.
