I never said it is "pie in the sky" that we will ever move, I said we won't be getting our own stadium.

Jaybs- you seem confident we will be getting our own stadium, please enlighten us at to where the money will be coming from. Have you won the Euro lottery or something?

If I win the Euro, we will have Our Own Stadium! be it East, North or West! or South, whichever area we can really be part of the community and build upwards! - if we have to ground share again, please Not a union club and I am not anti union at all, I was a full member at Orrell RUFC in their glory days with my mate Peter Williams and John Carleton, but it was so different at Orrell I tell you.

and how does that relate to your original opinion that we are damaging the Quins brand more this season than in any other?

And you wonder why people have difficulty following your posts. If you can't answer fine, leave it.

So is it £200,000 or Gutterfax's nearly £400,000?

I was obviously way off the mark...I would take ther 200k figure or 15k a game...

Harlequins brand damaging the ESL club how exactly?

Fan numbers were about the same over 4 years as Quins RL as they were as the Broncos at Griffin Park........the team became absolute , that's when the attendances tapered off.......
Rupe1 and the other "chiponshoulders" claimed we'd see the massed hoardes of RL fans return in their gazzillions once we were free of the Union name......let me know how that's panning out?

The only thing damaging the ESL club in London is the continued neglect when it comes to promotion. Change the name to the south London Stags, or Noth London Norsemen....East London Eels even.......build a purpose built 20,000 seater arena and fill the squad with entire Kanagroos squad....it wil make no difference unless they F()(king tell anyone.

The first 4 years as Quins saw 199,000 fans watch 53 games of Superleague......the previous 4 years at Griffin Park saw 194,000 watch 54 games of ESL with some taken OTR. The previous 4 years saw about 160,000 watch 56 "Home" games..........prior to that........well, prior to that, there was even less marketing....the novelty value was enough back then.....and since 2010, the team have been utter crap, still are!

There is no evidence that anywhere would be a good place in London for the ESL team to be situated, but before another expensive and unrequired move is considered, they should at first have a crack at MARKETING IT in an area where they have been trying to build some form of community network.. (no matter how badly they have gone about it)

OK... I'll make this ton. Is ESL European Super League?

It is.....although some think is stands for EASTLONDON Superleague

ESL doesn't exist, it's a dumb thing dumb Aussies say. Along with Marones, Wigan is playing well, five eighth, mongrel and look at my ridiculous home made sign I made that says 'Sweet and Soward' or 'Please take my Cherry-Evans, Daly'.

Day-boo

1. Damage to the LONDON BRONCOS brand, Most people who have watched Super League on TV and may want to experience Live do not in the norm identify with union, they see the image of the Twickenham and the Rolls Royce cars with picnic baskets and champagne, it is the same as with Cameron and Eton! - when we decided to re-brand I always felt that would have been the time to completely split and move from the stoop. I accept though that we just had to re-brand and finding a suitable ground is not going to be easy and with the new licence period it had to done now, sadly with the on the field results after such good recruitment we have not produced the goods and the impact of the re brand has been lost.

2. No One really knows fully the discussions taking place about a renewal of the agreement with our landlords or the search for a new ground! correct? If our landlord was so enthusiastic to retain us as "easy money" and a nice profit making exercise they would be doing everything to retain us, I have never seen this time around since we have been at the stoop any enthusiasm towards us from the landlords, yes when we re-branded as Quins they did make a small effort to let their supporters know about us but that is all. Now we are The London Broncos once more and currently the way we are perceived (the landlords only need to have a glance at this forum) we will be seen as sinking fast, so they may even feel now is it worth it being associated with us?

Only time will tell gutterfax but I never feel that we will be able to build upwards via the local Twickenham community if we stay, if we do not start to turn things around and Super League is reduced to 12 teams next time around what is out future, the bargain some people think it is to play at the stoop will not be affordable in the championship unless David Hughes decides to work until he is 70! What income do we have currently, not much from season ticket sales, none hardly from sponsorship (while the Skolars seem to do so well) merchandise limited and I am uncertain what profits we are able to get on a match day from bars and entertaining do we keep all the income from this sector?

Just wish I had the funds of DH, as I have no family commitments at all, over the good years for myself I put in as much as possible with sponsorship of players shirts and match balls etc, but I have no doubt if my circumstances do change I will put my money were my mouth is! no way should London fail.

Tell me another ground in London where we could play for £200K ? Bear in mind that while we might generate more revenue on a ground of our own we would also have much higher costs.

I wonder how many Quins RL ST holders have stopped going since we reverted to Broncos, just a thought, it may account for some of the drop in gates!

There was enthusiasm from our Landlords at the start of the venture, but this petered out as the performances on the pitch faltered and the crowds dropped (or were static at best.) They then realised that we were not going to make any impact on the competition and basically are a loss making business which wasn't worth investing in (who can blame them ? Especially now we see how they have built their team and their crowds?).

It is correct to say we don't know if Quins are trying to retain us, but I would guess they are, as it is worth their while financially.

Jaybs doesn't want us to play at The Stoop or another RU club, so this leaves us with getting involved with a soccer club (again).

The down side to being a tenant at a Soccer club is that they will want to kick us out for 2 months to work on their pitch. Hence we will have weeks of away and on the road games, which will impact on us being able to build support (and we know how our team thrives away from home!).

Thanks at last someone like 2Dan Stains woz God2 who is willing at least to discuss and accept we can have different opinions, it would be a boring world if we didn't.

I wanted to return to the stoop, I had happy memories from first time around, but it has simple not worked, the only reason I can think of is first time around it was something different and we had a good time especially the World Championship matches. If we did go in with any other union club it would have to be one with a ground up to Super League standards, which are worth considering? if it is another area of London would they be more willing to accept us? will travel at any other union club provide us with better tube links?

Yes we will have some problems with re-seeding at a football club, but pitches these days are much better, can't remember Wigan Warriors having any on the road games? I know many will not agree but I enjoyed our time at The Valley, it felt more like a home than the stoop.

Anyway need to get on the M62 now!

The Bit in Red is on of the more assumptive claims you have come up with recently......firstly, if they watch the game on TV they Know who we are and what we play, next up, Union is not the MASSIVE beast I sometimes wind northerners up about.....Twickenham is a leafy suburb to most people that happens to have a large stadium where England play Union in front of crowds that do not reflect the unpopularity of its club games. Futhermore, Your use of RR cars, Picnic baskets and Etonian Cameron point to where this "idea" really comes from. Not all wealthy people who come from old money are s......same way northerners aren't wife beating ex-miners with whippets!
As for the Re-brand......it was always doomed to failure.....as a matter of courtesy I said I would reserve my judgement until after the Castleford home game.......but I saw it was bollox back in October and I have seen nothing at all to make me change my thoughts on that. Being the Broncos has not brought 1 benefit I can see........feel free to let me know where I am wrong. Yes, a winning team would be handy, but my first game as a fan was a loss.....I still came back for more......from 4,900 to 1,900, games 1&2 as Broncos at the stoop this year, is shocking.....truly shocking!


Cool story bro, but where's the evidence that the landlords would WANT to reduce their income by getting rid of us? YES.....when we were Quins RL it was very annoying that a lot of the "joint venture" stuff never happened, but since the first 3 yrs were up, we became tenants.....I expect my tenants to pay their rent, maintain my properties and that's pretty much it........what EXACTLY is it you expect from Harlequins RFC other than what we are paying for......?


Cool story II bro.....but your feeling that we can't build a fan base in Twickenham is actually a flawed assumption......if the club actually tried, then yes, I might say after 6 years it's maybe time up sticks, but they have done little or nothing in the area...ask Darth....he's a journo in the area........they are shocking in their total lack of activity on that front.....



Cool Story III bro.....I wish I'd pick 6 + the bonus ball, but I still reside in the REAL WORLD! I buy shirts (when they make it possible to do some from outside the UK), but it is not my JOB to turn this around.



I never said we didn't have options.....I just said your BLIND EAST IS THE BEST WAY mantra was flawed, because there was no proof that it was, nor that West had even been tried properly.

I see Wakefield have managed to shake us and Widnes off.....looking like June 9th is the decider for the wooden spoon.......

'it was always doomed to fail' a rather broad statement and by the looks of it based on hindsight unless of course you wrote the business plan and knew it was a waste of time.

At the end of 2005, the club had a net worth of MINUS £890,000
At the end of 2010, the club had a net worth of MINUS £8,870,000

From Season start 2006 - to season end 2010, the club played 136 games, won 50 (36%) and attracted an average gate of 3,686 at, according to Ian Lenegan (circa 2006) a value of the club of £9.85 each.

Given I can't access the net worth of the club for 2011, let's say, to keep you happy, they broke even

...but I can say that they took another hit on average fans, down to 3,596 over 79 games.

On what planet did anyone think that changing the club badge and colours, together with a revertion back to the name of a club that pretty much rolled over and died in 2005 was ever going to stop the losses inexcess of £1,500,000 a year and go any way to attracting the additional 8,600 fans per game needed to do so?

IF the club were going to change their name, it should have been only considered in association with a major brand.......(VODAFONE NEWZEALAND WARRIORD anyone?)....and not based on the assumption of a handful of bitter fans protesting to the club about a "union" tie in, the steerage of a CEO 8 months into his first ever tenure in RL and most certainly not on the whim of an owner who was at the time, shipping 1.5 million a year into a black hole.

Figures here
[urlhttp://companycheck.co.uk/company/05322378[/url

Hindsight is a great tool, but I can assure you that I was adamant when the name change was first touted that it wouldn't work...the same way I am now saying a move isn't the answer either.

As for a business plan.........I didn't need one than to know it was an elastoplast being administered to a 14" gash needing 125 stitches.....but I don't deal in the currency of excuses as so many tasked with steering this club have done over the years.

I was thinking that.

Starting to think the club is being deliberately run along [iBrewster's Millions[/i lines.

How else do you explain so many ideas seemingly designed to lose money?

See the cowgirls turned up at Gillingham along with buck and dusty to promote the forthcoming hull game

...that'll be the promotional work that was mentioned in the cowgirls blurb at the start of the recruitment process. Now, if they could just use them a little closer to TW2.......

Gutterfax Anyone who has a "personal opinion" can be accused of being assumptive! it is being able to Accept others can have opinions.

Did I ever state that that rich people are s? many of my personal friends are most successful and come from a privileged background but they are also genuine, why people have to use boxes is beyond me for identifying different groups, but sadly that is the way many do perceive those who attend Twickenham and that is not just assumption, I was born in a two up, two down terraced house, but I never let it hold me back.

Again I have always clearly stated that any re-brand and re-launch has to be the Complete Package otherwise it is pointless! I still feel we needed the name change, but the rest of the package re-launch has been so week, I would love to see were the support the RFL are giving has gone.

Quins RU I did expect more and especially when we adopted the name, which I supported as I felt it would bring benefits, but we were still the poor cousins and now the poor tenants, I did feel that their name would have assisted with sponsorship when you look at the major brands they enjoy, but that goes back to the
presumptive Up Market image of Union, not the product at times which can be a bore!

I live in the real world and for 30 odd years have done as much as I can, many players shirts sponsorships, match balls, academy sponsorship and support as well as buying like you merchandise, I also have done as much with my media contacts to promote our club and the game in London, but that is what you do as a loyal supporter!

Well I disagree and it is my personal opinion the west has been tried and the last few years is proof it has failed, sadly now any investment in marketing with the state of the club and on field performances is a Total Waste of Money! to Market you need the right Product and ours is not right. East us flawed is your opinion and I respect it but again I disagree! I feel it is more of an area that we could develop in and a lot of money has been pumped into the amateur game and youth development there, that is my opinion!

I sat on many management boards and we had some strong discussions and most of the time our product was spot on, but I can assure you we walked out of those board rooms as mates and friends and worked together to ensure we always got it right, even if the choice was not always our own, if London is going to Survive and that is the stage we are getting to we need to work together, its no use having different camps, we may not agree all the time but we should on that it will be sad and disappointing if a London Super League club is allowed to fail.

Union's popularity is not presumptive - you just need to look at their fan base to tell they are cut above the rabble of toothless goons we call supporters