Yeah yeah, you don't rate the U20's we get it. As for accusing others of not knowing the game mmm..........Based on what? That my opinion is different to yours? Or are you a super coach trolling these boards. Funny I've worked alongside some great coaches and players and they don't exactly share your view, so pray tell what confirms you are right and others not allowed to have a different view. I'm curious.

As I am no longer in the UK I didn't say you were wrong or have a personal attack, I just gave some examples of what I knew where the issues previously. So enlighten me as to who is loaned elsewhere and how you belive they are stretching themselves. I ask as I merely pointed out that the scores at the weekend were so extreme. Yes I realise that this was against amatuer teams but I believe we should revert back to drawing those games out of the hat. As for loaning players out, yes possibly in the National but let's be honest there are a lot of guys starring in that league who have tried and can't make it in super league so what makes this better? I can see the kids will have to wise up quickly with older players trying to teach the young up starts a lesson. Also if we sent all our youngsters to Skolars, how does this help Skolars in the long run.

Probably one of the most succesful teams in past two decades was the Brisbane Broncos. They rarely used to buy players in, they brought them through the system. Now I thought that was what the no relegation point in UK was all about, to bring the kids through a system. So which teams don't take it seriously and have you been told this for a fact or is that your opinion?

A number of interesting points made on here, some wildly off the mark but overall some very valid points, having read all the messages, I cant quite see how so much negativity can creep into what started as a very positive story, a 38-4 home win against Huddersfield, following on from a 34-12 away at Leeds. To put it into perspective, no one is saying that Harlequins U20s have become a new superpower this season or even win the league, just they produced two very decent results against teams who are traditionally thought of as two of the rugby league big boys from the rugby heartlands. Whether Quins have the strength in depth to maintain it, only the season will show, no doubt injuries and performance of the first team will affect the selection for the season, I would imagine a U20 play off place would be the real aim for this season.

We can all sit here and roll out the merits of U15-16, the U18 academy and now U20, who takes the U20 seriously, how many will make superleague, how many will championship etc. It is very easy to knock it all, but what good is that.

For my reckoning Mr Lister a minimum of four will make superleague from this current crop within the next three years, this added to the established O Callaghan who could still play in the 20s and the established Krasniqi who would still be an U19. Without putting to much pressure on them, Caro, Sarginson, Mellor (on Loan), with a bit of luck will all play superleague, then at least one of the talented bunch of Ridley, Thomas, Lovell, S Bolger, Edwards, all of whom train with the first team at the moment, and a number of others in the 20s who quietly go about there business. You can add to this Martyn Smith who has already played superleague and is just 18, and the established Gigot at Catalans who played games for the U18s until homesickness called him back, not sure but Cottle at Sheffield was at Quins but is at University in Sheffield.

Last years 18s who came up this year produced a very decent season and just showed how we are getting strength in depth below that, with a number of names tipped for bright futures. Ben Bolger who was in last years 20, is 21 and is signed first team player and played around 10 superleague games last season

Not sure we can speak for other teams, not sure we should really be concerned either, We need to find what works for us as a club and what produces players for us within the clubs critical financial state and geographical boundaries that we fall under. You can slag the quality of the U20s comp, but I would imagine for us it is still key in giving quality game time after players have passed through U18s, to say that that all the best boys up north are attached to first team squads or are out on loan at championship clubs and don't play U20s is just simply untrue.

Loans to Championship sides, when you take into consideration everything re location training and payments added to this many of the Quins boys are on part time contracts and are at uni or work, not sure how this will ever become viable for us. The distances would make training hard to attend and not sure clubs are going to pay for players to relocate to train part time, when they can a take local lad who can live at home while on loan, not sure flooding Skolars in the answer for either club

Obviously the scholarship age groups are key, but we have to go a whole lot further than this to understand rugby league in London, Unlike the North, boys are not playing rugby league at 7 years old, indeed only in the last few years has there been any club youth rugby league, Massive steps are being made with Hemel Medway St Albans Skolars Brentwood etc.

In the years gone by the players did not have the years of grounding and coaching, consequently the majority of boys were playing Quins scholarship rugby having played less than 20 games of rugby league in there lives, including a few who had never played any, obviously they have lots of catching up to do. A northern lad can expect up to an extra 8 years of numerous training sessions and school and club games under the belt by the time he plays Scholarship at 15. I have heard many different views of how far our boys were behind development and body wise but it ranges from 1 year to 3 years depending on who you listen to.

This shortfall needs to be made up somewhere, and I would have thought end of 18s is were really catch up and the U20s polish and develop the players. I'm not sure it really critical for us what age they become a superleague player in the making within reason, its whether they do that matters. Of course there will be exceptional natural talents that develop early, and a couple of the above players listed would make it any club in superleague and indeed have been openly courted to join them, and interestingly turned them down.

Times are changing and we catching boys younger, which means we can coach them in there development years, but whether we like it or not, rugby league is long a way down a London boys list of things to play. There isn't a limit less supply of talent or youth budget out there for us, maybe we have to give players slightly longer to become the finished article, but surely thats for us to manage.

Its all very well to sit here and say a none of other clubs take 20s seriously, but as examples when you go to St Helens two thirds way through the season and they field Fozzard and Gardener and Wigan send down a side to Roehampton containing Karl Pryce and Palea'aesina, then you have to question that thought. This is not the exception, but examples of what happened with some of the U20 teams we played against. With 3 over aged contracted players allowed to play in the side, it is the best tool we have of developing our players, it allows players to play learn and develop, and play against established super league players, which has to be key to any clubs player supply chain. Realistic game time is all you can ask for, and beats any training session.

I do agree looking at the 20s age group seems a strange age cut off when 22-23 would seem more advantageous, against it the the big difference between U18s and U22/23, you can see a lot of boys leaving U18s and struggling to get games in a true U22/23 side, with so many boys from previous years in front of them, what do they do for games in the mean time. What is puzzling is that RFL after discussing it with the clubs must have decided that U20 was the way forward, so not sure why they are looking to change again back after 2 years.


Mr Lister, If you want a wager on the four superleague players, I will match an even £250.00 to the Harlequins Foundation, bearing in mind we have two already

No, but they should and the RFL should make it a key perfomance indicator for their development staff.

They need to be exposed to our great game at a very early age, like they are to soccer and union. I say this as a father of a 7yo who I would dearly love to love league, but feel the draw of Arsenal and Chelsea might be too much if his basic league interest is not tapped into.

Oh and Fozzard, excellent post.

Dave Lister is right on this.

Learn to post properly if you want people to read what you have to say, as it is I won't bother.

Should I? Won't you? Oh dear.

But it's a fair point. This has been a long and interesting argument with a few people making quite complex posts. If you don't structure your replies properly they become difficult to read and many, such as jbuzza and myself, just won't bother. Hence your ideas don't get across. It's your choice.

Then don't.

Or maybe post on the topic or on RL rather than rugby free comments on 'proper' posting structure.

Either way, fill your boots.

Bu99er me....
4th in the League, 3rd in the reserves League....it'll never catch on down here



Team Played Won Drawn Lost For Against Points
Castleford U20 3 2 0 1 120 48 4
Wigan U20 2 2 0 0 94 32 4
Harlequins U20 2 2 0 0 76 16 4
Wakefield U20 2 2 0 0 92 34 4
Hull U20 2 2 0 0 55 20 4
Warrington U20 2 1 0 1 84 46 2
Leeds U20 3 1 0 2 68 76 2
Salford U20 3 1 0 2 58 130 2
Crusaders RL U20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
St Helens U20 1 0 0 1 14 28 0
Bradford U20 1 0 0 1 20 36 0
=#FF0000Hull KR U20 2 0 0 2 6 104 0
Huddersfield U20 3 0 0 3 22 139 0

Good to see the conveyer belt in East Hull paying dividends

I make us joint top with a game in hand along with 3 others?

Defensive numbers look very impressive. Conceding an average of only 8 points per game!!! Better than any club in the league.

Am just wondering how many players people think go from U20s to first grade contract in the NRL? Or indeed, play an NRL game whilst still in U20s.

Haere mai GF.

What un wundy wullington cuz?

Bluddy Crim

great thread - p t w l

I believe that the numbers are increasing year on year.....and that over time more and more NRL players will come through the ranks. SL is behind the NRL, but the model that they have put in place should start to get the same results.

For example...in this extract taken from the Dom Post site here in Wellington ([url=http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/opinion/blog-at-sixes-and-sevens/4490497/2010-in-a-league-of-its-ownLINK HERE[/url)

[iThe Junior Warriors proved too strong for their South Sydney opponents as they out-scored the Bunnies 42-28 in the under-20 grand final.

Names like Shaun Johnson, Elijah Taylor, Ben Henry, Glen Fisiiahi and Sam Lousi look set to be in the premier team in the coming years but championship success does come at a price.

Already the Warriors have lost Nafe Seluini (Penrith) and Elijah Niko (Melbourne) to other teams and will lose more if the juniors defend their title in 2011. [/i

You are never going to build your first ream entirely from your reserves or academy, but surely this model is better than the one currently employed in East Hull?

Quote ="gutterfax"I believe that the numbers are increasing year on year.....and that over time more and more NRL players will come through the ranks. SL is behind the NRL, but the model that they have put in place should start to get the same results. For example...in this extract taken from the Dom Post site here in Wellington ([url=http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/opinion/blog-at-sixes-and-sevens/4490497/2010-in-a-league-of-its-ownLINK HERE[/url) [iThe Junior Warriors proved too strong for their South Sydney opponents as they out-scored the Bunnies 42-28 in the under-20 grand final. Names like Shaun Johnson, Elijah Taylor, Ben Henry, Glen Fisiiahi and Sam Lousi look set to be in the premier team in the coming years but championship success does come at a price. Already the Warriors have lost Nafe Seluini (Penrith) and Elijah Niko (Melbourne) to other teams and will lose more if the juniors defend their title in 2011. [/i You are never going to build your first ream entirely from your reserves or academy, but surely this model is better than the one currently employed in East Hull?'" Don't think your belief is right on this occasion GF. Of those kids mentioned not all got full time contracts and only one of them is named to play 1st grade this weekend. In fact, Elijah Taylor is playing in the reserves: www.nswrl.com.au/default.aspx?s= ... y&id=34095

Quote ="gutterfax"I believe that the numbers are increasing year on year.....and that over time more and more NRL players will come through the ranks. SL is behind the NRL, but the model that they have put in place should start to get the same results. For example...in this extract taken from the Dom Post site here in Wellington ([url=http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/opinion/blog-at-sixes-and-sevens/4490497/2010-in-a-league-of-its-ownLINK HERE[/url) [iThe Junior Warriors proved too strong for their South Sydney opponents as they out-scored the Bunnies 42-28 in the under-20 grand final. Names like Shaun Johnson, Elijah Taylor, Ben Henry, Glen Fisiiahi and Sam Lousi look set to be in the premier team in the coming years but championship success does come at a price. Already the Warriors have lost Nafe Seluini (Penrith) and Elijah Niko (Melbourne) to other teams and will lose more if the juniors defend their title in 2011. [/i You are never going to build your first ream entirely from your reserves or academy, but surely this model is better than the one currently employed in East Hull?'" Don't think your belief is right on this occasion GF. Of those kids mentioned not all got full time contracts and only one of them is named to play 1st grade this weekend. In fact, Elijah Taylor is playing in the reserves: www.nswrl.com.au/default.aspx?s= ... y&id=34095

Quote ="Rooster Booster"Don't think your belief is right on this occasion GF. Of those kids mentioned not all got full time contracts and only one of them is named to play 1st grade this weekend. In fact, Elijah Taylor is playing in the reserves: www.nswrl.com.au/default.aspx?s= ... y&id=34095'" Sam Louisi and Ben Henry are still in the U20's.......and The Storm reckon Niko is a star of the future [urlhttp://www.foxsports.com.au/league/nrl-premiership/melbourne-storm-excited-by-new-recruit-elijah-niko-hopeful-he-might-be-next-israel-folau/story-fn2mcuj6-1226001918151[/url ....as with the London SL Franchise experiment as some still refer to us, these things take time, but surely, as businesses, the clubs in the NRL and ESL will see the benefit of "growing their own" I agree....as it is, the U20's isn't the main production line for the senior comps, but it will be. As more money becomes available to the clubs (see dm's posts regarding TV deals) then the clubs will be able to commit more time and effort into these kids and less will slip through the net. Also, stepping up from U20's to senior level is usually only achieved by real superstars.....

Quote ="Rooster Booster"Don't think your belief is right on this occasion GF. Of those kids mentioned not all got full time contracts and only one of them is named to play 1st grade this weekend. In fact, Elijah Taylor is playing in the reserves: www.nswrl.com.au/default.aspx?s= ... y&id=34095'" Sam Louisi and Ben Henry are still in the U20's.......and The Storm reckon Niko is a star of the future [urlhttp://www.foxsports.com.au/league/nrl-premiership/melbourne-storm-excited-by-new-recruit-elijah-niko-hopeful-he-might-be-next-israel-folau/story-fn2mcuj6-1226001918151[/url ....as with the London SL Franchise experiment as some still refer to us, these things take time, but surely, as businesses, the clubs in the NRL and ESL will see the benefit of "growing their own" I agree....as it is, the U20's isn't the main production line for the senior comps, but it will be. As more money becomes available to the clubs (see dm's posts regarding TV deals) then the clubs will be able to commit more time and effort into these kids and less will slip through the net. Also, stepping up from U20's to senior level is usually only achieved by real superstars.....

DM doesn't know what happens at clubs.

It will stay as it is with only say 2 or 3 kids on average per year getting first grade contracts and even then not likely to play first grade. Don't listen to the News hype. Not much has changed since it was called Jersey Flegg in NSW, but as it's the NRL comp now, it's overhyped and all over the News Ltd media.

....you're being too kind





...don't doubt your on the ground knowledge, but I think the numbers will increase.

I have had years of ranting about DH spending too much on development and not enough on marketing the club.....it has always been an unwinnable debate, because even though we are getting a few cockneys coming through the ranks now, we still have no fans to witess it.



...we will agree to disagree on this. I have no doubt you will be proven correct over the coming years, but I still say my business model of growing your own is the better one.

I'm not disagreeing with any business models or the like. I'm just aware that in the NRL, the amount of U20s making first grade is being hyped up due to the fact that they are now coming from another comp run by the NRL.

And as much as I previously found some of the things you've said in the pas annoying re the club and marketing I do respect your superior knowledge on the matter.

hugs all round.