CJ-Why do teams stop concentrating on the 20's-What happens to the 18-20 year olds? It would seem natural for players to progress through the 20's to the first team- or do you believe the dual registartion is the way forward
Hudds yesterday recalled there loan players so they could play(CC weekend) Why do you think they would do that?
The blonde centre for Wire last night played for the Wire under 20's at The 'Shot as did the Crusaders winger(welsh international) on loan from Wire.

With Quins apparent strategy to focus on bringing home grown players through I suspect this team/league is important to the club.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=485168 Here is another club that doesnt take junior development seriously-hmmm

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=485168 Here is another club that doesnt take junior development seriously-hmmm

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=485155&start=15 Funny old thing

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=485155&start=15 Funny old thing

good win for the young quins indeed but our u20's are suffering because of the talent we have that is out on loan to other clubs/selected for our first team.

mcgilvaray,cudjoe,patrick,lunt,molloy are all through our academy recently who played for the first team.
mcnally,cording,walker,wardle, wood are all dual loanees at the moment who aren't always available, and lawrence and carlile have played first team this season, we've also released some players recently who were good prospects but haven't had much first team action.

Bottom line is that smart clubs invest in scholarship through to 18s. High quaity 18-20 are in the 1st team squads. Dual code gives them the chance to play in meaningful games and 20s is contested training. A few are loaned to 'weaker' SL clubs.

The quins are not able to operate dual coding as it is not encomically / practically viable. Certain fans should not kid themselves that beating teams that put limited effort into the 20s is overly impressive - though a win is always nice.

What is linking to a thread supposed to show? I had a quick look and the comment about players going on dual contracts so they could play in more competitive games is duly noted.

Posters commenting on a 20s game..gosh. So because some wolves/leeds posters comment on a 20s game we must conclude that the giants do not put emphasis on dual coding and...... our 20s team was the best we could produce and.... thus Quins slaughtered the cream of giants young players........NAH.

Attended the U20's yesterday. Thoroughly entertaining game. As a result I have read this thread with interest. The comments of some posters concerning the quality of the U20's competition has lead me on a quiet Sunday afternoon to do a little bit of research. According to the Quins v. Huddersfield first team programme notes and the U20's teamsheet available at the U20's match Huddersfield U20's fielded the following from their 37:

Greg McNally, fullback 28
Elliott Hodgson, wing 25
Kyle Wood, scrum half 23
AdamWalker, prop 24
Jamie Cording, second row 26
Danny Kirkmond, second row 17
Matty Sarsfield, loose forward 35
Ross Peltier, interchange 33

A total of 8.

Quins U20's fielded the following from our 32:

Mark Calderwood
Will Lovell
Omari Camo
Dan Sarginson
Joe Mellor
Rob Thomas
Max Edwards
Dave Williams
Lamont Bryan
Sam Bolger

A total of 10

By way of further comparison according to the programme notes covering the Quins U20's game against the Rhino's the Rhino's team included four players listed on their website as being in the First Team:

Callum Casey
Michael Coady
Liam Hood
Brad Singleton

Now I know Quins have a different dynamic when it comes to squad size compared to the established bigger clubs but I had assumed (and I stand to be corrected) that all clubs allocate squad numbers to those they expect to feature in the first team during the course of the coming season. The talented "fringe" players who are not included in the first team planning for the current season (subject to injury etc) are those that are loaned out.

If the U20's team list for Huddersfield I got yesterday is correct I am even more impressed by what our U20's achieved given the reported strength in depth Huddersfield possess. The 8 Huddersfield players involved should be pushing the first team incumbents for their places and doing their all to impress their coaches.

It is great you are bringing players through but do not rely too heavily on the 20s as a key benchmark.

Ok Ceejames if you are going to patronise me best it's left here. But....

As regards a benchmark despite it being a full on contest, these guys are professional athletes after all, no Thomas, Williams, Bryan, Lovell and Edwards are never going to make the metres or clean breaks they made yesterday in Super League first grade. Quins will however need them (and others) to cover injuries and unexpected and unanticipated losses in form among our first 19 (or demand selection based on form). Clearly in your opinion the Huddersfield 8 on display yesterday are not expected to have to do the same. It's important for us that Mellor*, Sarginson and Edwards play together as a unit as often as possible and train regularly with the first team so that they know the defensive systems and offensive plays in this inevitable eventuality. Quin's need for a competitive settled U20's on your view of the competition therefore appears to be different to other clubs.

Interestingly the success or otherwise, rightly or wrongly, of a club's U20's seems to matter to a lot of supporters on these forums.

Anyway good luck to Huddersfield this year. As I've said to the Huddersfield supporters I've spoken to after matches at the Stoop and last year at the Galpharm after the drubbing we received there I'm very impressed with the on field and off field development of the club over the last 2-3 years and it will be great to see the Huddersfield win Super League silverware this year.

*Slightly confused by this. He's with us to gain first grade experience but not made the 19 as a minimum yet?

I would hazard a guess that the U20's does mean more to the Quins, if for no other reason than location. I wonder how many of those players on dual location would be given this oppotunity if the the other club involved had to stump up for housing etc? Personally I think it's great to see so many London kids coming through the system. Being involved with the club from 94 - 2003, we had to scratch just to get either the academy or alliance teams out in years gone by. Hell we have even donned the kit ourselves just to be legal with numbers. Lost count of how many times we arrived at Euston for an away Alliance game, only to have 13 players rock up. The grass roots are the life blood of any sport. One of the reasons London has always found it tough in years gone by was because of the lack of locals. When players where given a day off training, it was staggering and telling when 1/2 the team jumped on a train to go home to the north for the night! Yes it's been a long time coming and it was never going to be a short term solution, but looking at the number of juniors playing the game now and what they are achieving at all levels is fantastic. So what if they don't all make it, just the fact that they play this great game and have a better understanding of it is success in it'self. The problem now begining to emerge, is that when a good one does come through, the other teams offer them more money to lure them away. The trick is to find some way to keep them. Was laughing last week when I read about Saints spending so much on Kyle Eastmond only for Bath to come in and pinch him. Hmm, now Saints may be my home town but how is that any different to what they did with Louie? Bath used their superior spending just like saints did, just a different sport! Personally couldn't care less if the other teams don't take the U20's seriously, that's their choice, so long as the lads keep winning. Winning is infectious at any level and if they get a taste for it at this level, they'll want to take it to the next.

perhaps you should arrange to play your U20s against local primary school teams. That way you can win by a big score each week, keep winning and 'get a taste for winning'.

The opposition does matter when developing players. That is why many SL clubs want players in a meaningful comp rather than meaningless 20s games.

It is great that more kids (and adults) in London are playing RL. This strengthens RL. Hopefully the Quins can help spread the word and more of the people playing the game will get to the Stoop.

Didn't we play against a Primary school team on Saturday???

Yeah yeah, you don't rate the U20's we get it. As for accusing others of not knowing the game mmm..........Based on what? That my opinion is different to yours? Or are you a super coach trolling these boards. Funny I've worked alongside some great coaches and players and they don't exactly share your view, so pray tell what confirms you are right and others not allowed to have a different view. I'm curious.

As I am no longer in the UK I didn't say you were wrong or have a personal attack, I just gave some examples of what I knew where the issues previously. So enlighten me as to who is loaned elsewhere and how you belive they are stretching themselves. I ask as I merely pointed out that the scores at the weekend were so extreme. Yes I realise that this was against amatuer teams but I believe we should revert back to drawing those games out of the hat. As for loaning players out, yes possibly in the National but let's be honest there are a lot of guys starring in that league who have tried and can't make it in super league so what makes this better? I can see the kids will have to wise up quickly with older players trying to teach the young up starts a lesson. Also if we sent all our youngsters to Skolars, how does this help Skolars in the long run.

Probably one of the most succesful teams in past two decades was the Brisbane Broncos. They rarely used to buy players in, they brought them through the system. Now I thought that was what the no relegation point in UK was all about, to bring the kids through a system. So which teams don't take it seriously and have you been told this for a fact or is that your opinion?

A number of interesting points made on here, some wildly off the mark but overall some very valid points, having read all the messages, I cant quite see how so much negativity can creep into what started as a very positive story, a 38-4 home win against Huddersfield, following on from a 34-12 away at Leeds. To put it into perspective, no one is saying that Harlequins U20s have become a new superpower this season or even win the league, just they produced two very decent results against teams who are traditionally thought of as two of the rugby league big boys from the rugby heartlands. Whether Quins have the strength in depth to maintain it, only the season will show, no doubt injuries and performance of the first team will affect the selection for the season, I would imagine a U20 play off place would be the real aim for this season.

We can all sit here and roll out the merits of U15-16, the U18 academy and now U20, who takes the U20 seriously, how many will make superleague, how many will championship etc. It is very easy to knock it all, but what good is that.

For my reckoning Mr Lister a minimum of four will make superleague from this current crop within the next three years, this added to the established O Callaghan who could still play in the 20s and the established Krasniqi who would still be an U19. Without putting to much pressure on them, Caro, Sarginson, Mellor (on Loan), with a bit of luck will all play superleague, then at least one of the talented bunch of Ridley, Thomas, Lovell, S Bolger, Edwards, all of whom train with the first team at the moment, and a number of others in the 20s who quietly go about there business. You can add to this Martyn Smith who has already played superleague and is just 18, and the established Gigot at Catalans who played games for the U18s until homesickness called him back, not sure but Cottle at Sheffield was at Quins but is at University in Sheffield.

Last years 18s who came up this year produced a very decent season and just showed how we are getting strength in depth below that, with a number of names tipped for bright futures. Ben Bolger who was in last years 20, is 21 and is signed first team player and played around 10 superleague games last season

Not sure we can speak for other teams, not sure we should really be concerned either, We need to find what works for us as a club and what produces players for us within the clubs critical financial state and geographical boundaries that we fall under. You can slag the quality of the U20s comp, but I would imagine for us it is still key in giving quality game time after players have passed through U18s, to say that that all the best boys up north are attached to first team squads or are out on loan at championship clubs and don't play U20s is just simply untrue.

Loans to Championship sides, when you take into consideration everything re location training and payments added to this many of the Quins boys are on part time contracts and are at uni or work, not sure how this will ever become viable for us. The distances would make training hard to attend and not sure clubs are going to pay for players to relocate to train part time, when they can a take local lad who can live at home while on loan, not sure flooding Skolars in the answer for either club

Obviously the scholarship age groups are key, but we have to go a whole lot further than this to understand rugby league in London, Unlike the North, boys are not playing rugby league at 7 years old, indeed only in the last few years has there been any club youth rugby league, Massive steps are being made with Hemel Medway St Albans Skolars Brentwood etc.

In the years gone by the players did not have the years of grounding and coaching, consequently the majority of boys were playing Quins scholarship rugby having played less than 20 games of rugby league in there lives, including a few who had never played any, obviously they have lots of catching up to do. A northern lad can expect up to an extra 8 years of numerous training sessions and school and club games under the belt by the time he plays Scholarship at 15. I have heard many different views of how far our boys were behind development and body wise but it ranges from 1 year to 3 years depending on who you listen to.

This shortfall needs to be made up somewhere, and I would have thought end of 18s is were really catch up and the U20s polish and develop the players. I'm not sure it really critical for us what age they become a superleague player in the making within reason, its whether they do that matters. Of course there will be exceptional natural talents that develop early, and a couple of the above players listed would make it any club in superleague and indeed have been openly courted to join them, and interestingly turned them down.

Times are changing and we catching boys younger, which means we can coach them in there development years, but whether we like it or not, rugby league is long a way down a London boys list of things to play. There isn't a limit less supply of talent or youth budget out there for us, maybe we have to give players slightly longer to become the finished article, but surely thats for us to manage.

Its all very well to sit here and say a none of other clubs take 20s seriously, but as examples when you go to St Helens two thirds way through the season and they field Fozzard and Gardener and Wigan send down a side to Roehampton containing Karl Pryce and Palea'aesina, then you have to question that thought. This is not the exception, but examples of what happened with some of the U20 teams we played against. With 3 over aged contracted players allowed to play in the side, it is the best tool we have of developing our players, it allows players to play learn and develop, and play against established super league players, which has to be key to any clubs player supply chain. Realistic game time is all you can ask for, and beats any training session.

I do agree looking at the 20s age group seems a strange age cut off when 22-23 would seem more advantageous, against it the the big difference between U18s and U22/23, you can see a lot of boys leaving U18s and struggling to get games in a true U22/23 side, with so many boys from previous years in front of them, what do they do for games in the mean time. What is puzzling is that RFL after discussing it with the clubs must have decided that U20 was the way forward, so not sure why they are looking to change again back after 2 years.


Mr Lister, If you want a wager on the four superleague players, I will match an even £250.00 to the Harlequins Foundation, bearing in mind we have two already

No, but they should and the RFL should make it a key perfomance indicator for their development staff.

They need to be exposed to our great game at a very early age, like they are to soccer and union. I say this as a father of a 7yo who I would dearly love to love league, but feel the draw of Arsenal and Chelsea might be too much if his basic league interest is not tapped into.

Oh and Fozzard, excellent post.

Dave Lister is right on this.

Learn to post properly if you want people to read what you have to say, as it is I won't bother.

Should I? Won't you? Oh dear.

But it's a fair point. This has been a long and interesting argument with a few people making quite complex posts. If you don't structure your replies properly they become difficult to read and many, such as jbuzza and myself, just won't bother. Hence your ideas don't get across. It's your choice.