Micky, what bothers me is the state of the amateur game here. Of three games I have tried to watch in the last month, on two occasions only one team has turned up. This doesn't bode well for building up from the lower tiers. I certainly don't know the answer to this problem

Not sure what games you are going too mate, I did 2 at the weekend u 17 skolars v Croydon, standard of kids rugby in the south has improved massively in the last 2 years btw.
Hemel on sat eastern region finals day, ok one game a bit one sided, the actual final was close run and a cracking game.
St Albans played the Army first team not so long back and gave em a good game, same Army team that played Chorley Panthers a heartland team, the standard was not that different.
Am RL is pretty healthy in London and the South

Michael. List the amateur Open Age teams in London and the SE with say a 5 year+ pedigree. Kids is all well and good, but the reality is that teams come and go with terrible frequency and are predominantly based arounf ex-pat northerners and Aussies.
I'd love to know how many of the kids that won at Wembley a couple of years back are still playing competitive RL?

Park RL is great.......but it doesn't deliver a pathway for professional athletes to progress in the game.

The Northerners have taken their ball home.......and the RFU didn't have to do anything to make it happen.

I think we can, because we almost got there on our own before the SLE "franchise" nonsense. As London Crusaders we finished 4th, 5th and 3rd, just missing out on the big time, even when Brisbane first re-christened us we finished 4th.

That was despite a period of direct RL running of the club, financial squeezes on salaries, nomadism and no facilities etc etc et-al.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just as frustrated as anyone else that the "gift" of top flight footie was wasted, but reality is, it has been and we have to start again, right back from were we started.

According to the handbook of the Southern Amateur Rugby League (as it was called then) for 1985/6 it's members were Aberavon, Bexley Heath, Cheltenham, Ealing, Fulham Amateurs, Fulham Travellers, Hemel Hempstead, Hounslow, London Colonials, Milton Keynes, Peckham, Peckham Pumas, Queen Mary College, St. Mary's College, Streatham Celtic, West London Institute, Wokingham and Oxford and Cambridge Universities. Obviously at this level clubs come and go (in Hemel's case to better things), but to lose all that is bizarre. No strong amateur base just makes our problems worse.

Unfortunately most southern teams are based around one or two key individuals and rarely survive their departure. There are some very impressive exceptions but it's a legitimate question to ask what legacy, say, Crawley Jets left.

Sadly I'm hearing both Oxford and Hemel have dropped out of the U18 league this season. The former is particularly worrying as the whole ethos of the club is to build local participation and the first team this season have often included 14 southern based lads and I think it was 15 at least once. (Admittedly injuries have forced their hand a little here.)

Clearly the more juniors playing the more good players will be uncovered to play at the highest level available down south, currently Broncos.

As an aside, if the York press is, to be believed a RU player who made his debut for Oxford in Sunday had a rugby league background that amounted to four training sessions. Not exactly evidence of a sport thriving down south. (I should add a conversation I had with someone who is likely to know suggests he had been around the club long enough that he would have attended more than four training sessions.)

On general survival think next year may be OK. I don't think the Hive will turn down the money until they can get rid of Underhill. The team my well be supported by the increased Sky money and parachute payments (both worryingly vague at the moment). So with 'free' ground and 'free' team don't see the urgent need to fold. ( I'm sure free can be defined by others)

Future years more worrying.

On a venue, London Welsh have signed up for a 3 year deal for the Kassam stadium in Oxford. This leaves them paying the Council for the Old Deer Park in Richmond. Advantages, Zone 4 underground/overground/fast trains, great club house and facilities. Disadvantage one poor 1,000 seater stand, but you can stand another 1,000 people round the outside of a rugby field do we need more?

So many negative viewpoints on here and most of them sadly true. Re-entry into SL anytime soon looks no more than about a 5% or 10% chance.

And, even if we do, does the "club" have any prospect of being able to manage its affairs any more successfully than it has in recent years? Can't see how unless somebody new with commitment, bottomless pockets, and lots of savvy appears over the horizon. Chances of that? Almost nil.

I agree with you GF their is no pathway for players into the top flight, thats why Tony Clubb is playing at Wigan, LMS at Saints, K Dixon probably soon to go to a SL team MCB just been picked up, where did they come from?

Louis is an example of how fragile the system is. From memory a cover teacher, who is an RL fan, suggested he tried it out. Had that teacher not gone to that school it is unlikely Louis would ever have played rugby. Tony meanwhile started RL a club who no longer exist.

It would be daft to say there is no pathway but the state of it is worryingly fragile. Throw in the fact the Broncos academy could be a target for the cut backs that will be necessary post relegation and it's difficult to feel optimistic unless the RFL get involved. We don't want to return to the days we had to loan Tony,Louis and Ade to Hull FC as we didn't have anything to offer down south at that stage in their development.

Yes we could, but the system is loaded against any team outside of Super League. We potentially have a one year advantage however it all depends on the recruitment and whether there is a balance there. It also depends on the coaching set up. I get the impression Grima is pretty much on his own at present and that won't really change until Henderson joins. It may be worth leaving judgement until we know what sort of squad we actually have. With a proper pre-season we should be in the middle 8.

The danger is as someone has said its a fresh group of our youth being bullied in the Championship rather than the current youth being bullied in the Super League.

And the amateur team that I played for in York is no longer playing!!! park teams come park teams go in all sports everywhere in the country.

Love the optimism on here though, maybe we should all pack up and go home.

English RL continually re invents itself, it has done through its history. The play off system next year could!!! I say could BTW turn out to be quite entertaining.
As I said before the 4 from the top coming down will be the teams that have been losing, the 4 from the bottom tier will have been winning, so one lot will be going in to the back end of the season with confidence and presumably playing well, where as the other lot will be lacking in confidence.

Look at it this year! if you went to the 8 team league as it stands now what would it be?
Us, Bradford, Salford, Wakey
Leigh, fev, Halifax, Doncaster.
On current form how would that end up? probably the way teams are playing Salford (only coz of recent buys) Wakey Leigh fighting for 2/3 place Bradford, Us Fev Halifax, Donny, although I might put Fev ahead of us.
But thats down to current form and going in to games with confidence and a winning or losing mentality
so on that Leigh would get promoted and we would be in the mix with Bradford and fev for the 4/5 play off.

That would be entertaining!

But surely to God were going to sign a few players either with SL experience who are out of contract or a few Championship level players? We are surely going to need a few old tough heads to help the kids along no?

Alternatively you identify the weaknesses in the structure and work to improve the situation. To his credit it is clear that Joe is well aware of the issues and doing what is on his power to resolve the problems in player pathway. Fingers crossed the money men, be it at Broncos and/or the RFL are so far sighted.

I've said on here before that my favourite level of RL is Championship. I watched a lot of it on lot of it on long weekends up north and have thoroughly enjoyed my two seasons watching Championship One. Next season could be enjoyable but I'd rather it goes down in southern RL history as the season we finally began to got to grips with the challenges in player pathway down south. Something that goes beyond the Broncos but in which they are hugely important.

LW used to have problems when playoffs for RU season came around as cricket season had started. Not sure the venue can be used for rugby during summer months.

Agree that's what we need as a minimum. But as yet we've yet to sign or announce them. Got to hope thise signed have the right mentality.

....none of these players would have developed as they have donen or quite probably come to the attention of their new employers without the London SL outfit.......that's the PATHWAY. Now, if there's a young LMS out there, he's limited in his aspirations and options to either head north or play for the other lot.

Have you compiled the list of open age SE RL clubs with a 5+ year pedigree yet Michael? Looking forward to hearing tales of guys picked from London park RL pitches to play for Wigan.

IIRC Ealing continue in some form, via a series of mergers, as South West London Chargers.

Wokington after a series of moves and name changes still exist as Elmbridge Eagles.

Oxford and Cambridge Universities still play RL.

The point is "how many professional RL players came through the ranks of these park sides to play at the top level WITHOUT passing through the Broncos/Quins hands on the way?

None.

That's not to say that no professional RL players will ever be signed up by M62 sides though.

Rob Purdham works for Wigan and scouts Cumbrian RL on their behalf.

I'd suggest that this will probably happen in London if Broncos don't bounce back.

At the moment it doesn't pay to scout London RL as Broncos will have first call of any promising players but as they can't keep those players, it's easier to let Broncos do the scouting and even blood the players for you.

so the Pathway is now a lot longer and more difficult if a youngster wants to step up to the top tier, now that the top london side aren't in that top tier?

True but I would expect to see at least some Londoners making it through the system. The "big problem" that you already talked about is that London amateur clubs aren't particularly stable. The nature of London I'd say.

I believe the idea of doing some development work down south may have crossed Warrington's mind. I've heard from a few sources that they thought about keeping Phil Jones down south. Obviously Wigan are working in South Wales so there is a precedent for such a move. It's not impossible the pathway to professionalism could survive in a rather unexpected manner.

Edited to say I see the 2014 gradings for Superleague academies are out. London have slipped from a 3 in 2013 to the bottom rating of 4. Possibly not too surprising given the destabilising effect of losing Phil Jones.

And Rob in his interview on RLDS said that the number of kids playing in Cumbria was on a downward trend and he reckoned it was because there is no SL team at the top of the pyriamid, exactly my fear for the south.