Some sympathies with the structral comment... though a 3 year licence was supposed to help clubs in SL and Championship to plan more effectively... but I think you can ONLY plonk it in the lap of the clubs, because they are independent businesses with a pretty good idea of what central income they will receive from tv and sponsorship deals.

Running ANY business is simple - spend less than you bring in, and you'll do well. Spend more than you bring in, and you'll go bankrupt. It baffles me that club directors, who make their money doing this, suddenly forget when they take over a club.

3 year licence....It looks like the Welsh franchise of Celtic Crusaders which lasted one year to become Crusaders for year 2 is now to become Welsh Crusaders for year 3 (so a new club let in each year) due to the fact that the Crusaders are unlikely to survive the winding up order.

[url=http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sports/sports-news-round-up/2010/11/04/rugby-league-welsh-crusaders-to-ride-from-crusaders-ashes-91466-27596732/LINK HERE[/url

One word, farcical

It also suggests Leigh and Widnes might not be to happy.....can't imagine why

Under the old companies act does it not mean that the company directors are not allowed to be board members of another company for five years. Also any money owed to parties employed by the old company are known as creditors and have to get back their money via the liquidators which never usually happens. Can anyone tell me the differnce between winding up a company and going into liquidation? Does one mean it clears its depts and the other tries to by selling its assetts?

Directors are only banned from being a Director if they are disbarred, which can happen if anything illegal has been suggested, or if they have failed to meet any obligations on them as directors. Companies go out of business all the time, that's not illegal.... although it IS illegal to keep trading when the company directors know it to be insolvent. You get in less trouble for closing a company than for keeping a bankrupt company going.

Winding up is the process by which a company is closed, which can be done voluntarily by the directors and shareholders themselves (if, say, they just want to close a business for whatever reason) or can be forced by a third party that is owed money. Liquidation is an end-part of that process, by which all of the assets of the closing company are made 'liquid', i.e. turned from fixed assets (objects, like computers or cars) into disposable & transferrable assets (i.e. money).

As/when a company closes, its liquid assets (money) are used to pay off anyone that the company owes money to. Anything left is distributed as the shareholders choose, or if not is taken by the government. If there is not enough to pay the creditors, then some arrangement is made to pay a proportion of the debts in an order of priority. If the winding up & liquidation process is no volutary (i.e. is because a third party like HMRC is owed money), that can affect the order and priority in which debts are settled. There can be complex legal arguments about who gets what, etc.

One of the really important bits is the 'Limited' tag on the end of a company name. 'Limited Liability' is a legal status of companies, which means the personal liability of the shareholders (NOT Directors) to pay off the debts, is limited to the amount of share capital (money) they have invested in the company. This can be as little as a couple of pounds. It means creditors cannot personally sue the shareholders to get their money back. Without this protection, nobody would ever start a company.

The only redress creditors have is if they can show that the Directors or shareholders did something ILLEGAL and therefore have a personal liability for the outcome that is not protected by the Limited Liability status of the company. That might include trading while insolvent. But, in broad terms, a company in debt can be wound up, and a new company created by the same people doing the same thing the very next day.

The business over the missing pension payments involves illegality doesn't it, although I suspect Mr Samuels may be to blame there

Whilst I am totally opposed to franchising but not expansion I do not think people put money into any sporting club to make money and so from that point of view I do not think it should be equated with running a buisness.

A backer of a particular club would know how much money he/she was prepared to stump up every season and I expect that would 'or should' determine how much a club spends.

Not sure why they need to mention Leigh or Widnes in that article, its has nothing to do with our club or Widnes.

In effect Celtic /Crusaders / Welsh are looking increasingly like another London Crusaders / Bronco's / Quins.
I hope we get lucky and we see a return and people in Wrexham (its not a million miles from Widnes so hardly 'groundbreaking expansion') really take to the game and become properly part of the fabric.
If however we here of another name change next season then I'm sorry it will be seen for what it is - a Farce.

However once the dust has settled in Wrexham we need to look at why the heartlands continues to diminish to become a football hotbed and our 2nd tier of RL is having so much trouble.
Its all well and good expanding (in fact I'd imagine 99% of Leigh fans are for expansion - afterall we've watched our team in more expansion areas than most clubs) but lets ensure the games foundations arn't rotting - currently for whatever reason they are - last years attendances (expecially in Champ 1) should have alarm bells blasting out at Red Hall.

The Championship and Northern Rail cup need looking at, The Northern Rail Cup HAS to be seen as worth winning for more than a 'chance to apply for SL' and Championship 1 needs completley looking at in detail as the clubs are unable (or unwilling) to manage themselves.

In the Championship we have a evenly matched enjoyable competition but no-one seems too interested in watching it, the RFL and clubs need to do some head banging, in effect the Championship clubs (with the exception of Widnes) need to ignore SL and concentrate on getting our 'product' seen as worthy and worth being part of.

I've banged on about Leighs reluctance to do a family ticket and crazy prices for juniors, perhaps this is where the RFL can come on and part subsidise its lower league clubs and help them out, currently there is little incentive for a family to watch our league in comparrison to SL , RU or football.
If the RFL is making money how about a set amount of family or child tickets for each club purchased by them for sale by the member club at its ground to be sold at realistic 'headliner' prices (£25:00 for 2 adults and 2 Children , £ 17:00 for 1 adult 1 child etc, £3.00 for all children under 16 etc, etc) .
The club gains , but also the game gains, perhaps in return the member club agrees to sell (and push the boat out doing so) a specified amount of England RL tickets for the 4 nations / France game and tickets for the big RL events.

One thing is for sure, with clubs now always being deducted points we have to do something different, I'm pleased Welsh Crusaders are remaining part of the family, more important to me is the family doesn't become 'estranged' ,at the moment we are in danger of that happening.

Are the RFL throwing a lifeline for Blackpool?

posted my views many times on this subject. without skys money the game would have died as soon as union went pro.
how can anybody in their right mind expect to lindsay to say no to £86 million for a game played in yorkshire and lancs.
average crowds still much healthier in super league than they were before.
i get to see 2 or 3 live games every week.
we have a magazine show every week.
and our top players are paid a decent salary for putting their bodies on the line.

as for clubs being in debt what sporting clubs arent.

apart from that what have the romans ever done for us

Well I haven't looked into what crowds were 'before' not sure how far back you have gone with that one. What I can tell you is in general terms crowds are dropping, only five SL clubs posted an increase this year on last. Millenium 'Magic' is not as magic as it was with crowds dropping each year. And no you don't turn your nose up at 86 million. What was the last Sky renewal.... 46 million? Can't remember but thats the figure stuck in my head.

But surely because 99% of our funding comes from one organisation, the have us by the short and curlys. Also clubs cannot run at a loss forever, sugar daddys still run out of money. If a club is to survive it has to be financially aware. Clubs posting losses year in year out and there are a few of those in RL are going to have to start reigning in their spending otherwise they will go the same way as Blackpool and Crusaders. In the last 3 months, we have had Haven into Administration, Blackpool I think have just about folded, winding up orders for Wakefield/Oldham/Crusaders. Who's next HKR? They haven't turned a profit in at least 5 years.

If clubs are running at a loss they are doing something wrong, if the money is not there you can't pay the players what you are paying them surely

..and that's the problem. It's why clubs get in trouble, and why the RFL has to bail them out.

Jack Gibson was one of the first to say, 'get it right off the pitch, and on the pitch will follow'. Look at soccer.

Wigan Athletic. I rememeber their promotion into the football league. Wigan isn't a football town, doesn't have a great history and tradition. It's a place to set up a 'new' team... a massive RL town, sandwiched between City & United, Liverpool & Everton, Bolton, Blackburn, Burnley and Preston.

And yet. A good stadium. A good matchday experience. A great professional environment for the players. And, hey presto, a Premiership team.

There are other examples across the divisions in football. Reading. Yeovil. Or kick'n'clap, on my doorstep at Exeter Chiefs.

It doesn't, though. Sport England provides £29.4m lottery funding and around £6m exchequer funding. The current Sky deal was £50m over 4 years. Carnegie puts in £8m. BBC puts in several million. The other sponsorship deals are worth a few million. Ticket sales and merchandising rights are worth over £10m annually. Sky's tv rights deal is less than half of the total income to the RFL.




Bang on. Totally agree.

But that's the clubs cocking things up, not the RFL. The very same club chairmen that you initially said should see sense and get rid of Nigel Wood & Richard Lewis.

You list quite a lot of money there. The Championship clubs get what exactly, and I mean money that doesn't have ridiculous conditions attached

Sorry W71, bad example there mate. It was all provided by Dave Whelan and Dave Whelan alone, not through any kind of organic growth.

Their attendances this year and cheap as chips season tickets confirms that the club is built on sand. If Whelan had been a Southport fan then it could easily have been them in the Prem now whilst Wigan compete with Athy Colls for the Bedford League Sunday Cup (or sommat).

The better example was Reading but then again Jon Madjeski is almost as much to them as Whelan is to Wigan. In fairness they had a half decent following at Elm Park (they'd knocked on the Premier League door for a good while and sold 38000 tickets for their 95 play off game with Bolton in just 3 days) whilst Latics struggled to get 2000 at Springfield for years.

Well fair enough but I still think the second paragraph of my post is relevant even though you did not quote that.

By the way do you think Wigan Athletic are making money ?

Sport is most definatley not a commercial enterprise at pro level. It is a passion for its' backers isn't it ?

football is and i suspect RU is as well.

Yea right some of our top football clubs are definately in the black.

He was agreeing with me Bart.

the glazers took out over ten million last season for admin
those nobs at liverpool were hoping to sell the club for twice what they payed.these clubs are businesses not play things

Yea jc I got the wrong end of the stick

....

That is a joke when the RFL are splitting us completely in two by making clubs outside SL have to BEG to get into it through the stupid franchising ssytem and alienating heartland clubs by making us like lepers.
I like many other fans support my club (Fax) and not RL anymore, I don't care a jot about England RL its a SL team not ours as we are excluded so why should I care?
Sad as I have been RL through and through for 40 years now and used to support anything with RL on it and go to GB games and even CC semi finals, not any more I will never go to any internationals or any games as a neutral in SL anymore like I would do years ago. I just to to the Challenge Cup Final out of tradition and a trip with the lads and thats it they have lost my support.
I know a lot of people who feel like this now.

its easily done mate with a thread like this



personally speaking after reading a couple of posts today on here iv'e come to the conclusion theres no room for RL between the amateur game and SLE.

W71 has some great points, he will be much closer to grassroots expansion support then most on here. JC has hit the nail on the head though, heartlands non SL clubs have no part to play in RL's future. This is clearly the strategy of the RFL, its a very dangerous one and supports my belief that unless things change quickly its time for a breakaway as the clubs in this area are simply there to groom future SL clubs from non heartlands.
The opportunities from central funding have only recently been available, our expanding national presence certainly helps in securing a bigger slice of that and the work of W71 and the others in taking the sport to new areas is fantastic, having Welsh and French clubs in SL is fantastic, having them in the Championships is fantastic but what is happening to the Fev,s, Haven's, Leyth's, Fax's etc is not, our failure to develop at International level certainly is not.
Does anyone think Whelan would have done what he did knowing should he win promotion he may not get into the Premiership?

Agreed, but the point is Wigan didn't sign a brilliant team with their billionaire's money, they build a great environment. The same is true at Reading, and, come to that, at Exeter Chiefs and Worcester RFC. This is directly applicable to us at LSV, and even though I don't feel we've grasped that opportunity yet, it is one of the strongest assets in our favour (despite the ownership and revenue issues).

Totally agree with you, as a business plan it's as sustainable and forward thinking as you could ever hope to get.

But at 4.45 on a Sunday aftenoon when Batley have handed us our backsides, not many folk wandering back up Schofield Stret care about the community work, stadium, youth structure, etc etc etc, its another couple of hundred off the next gate, and the plan goes to pot because there isnt enough cash coming in to pay for it.

Dont get me wrong, I'd sooner spend Robbie Pauls wage on the youth structure, (for example), but it really is a difficult balancing act because you need players like him to help develop the kids and bring the best out of the rest.