In short No they got there by the back door not by merit so they shouldnt be there, if we had had a three year grace period then we could have been up there with them, it didnt happen.
Unlevel playing fields are unfair, whats next a team in Dubai just because some rch Oil Sheik wants one and SKY thinks its a good idea?

If franchising was taken to its ideal level yes I would watch a Salford/Leigh combined team in a summer L comp as long as I had a team in Leigh to watch in a winter, comp, not minding if it was in the 2nd tier as long as there was a chance we could get to the top one that would be a proper franchised sport not a 'well we are there now and here we are staying' unfair one, it will never happen just like Leigh will never have a standalone SL team, because of geographical reasons NOT RL playing one.

Wash your mouth out with carbolic soap , normal soap just wouldn't do the trick

Lol

Shocking thought , if we ever had to merge with anybody really , let's hope our fortunes never come to that

What does by "merit" or "doing it the right way" actually mean ? Its not the 1980's - nowadays clubs don't have to work that hard anymore if you have a money man or got the dosh or overdraft.
2004 Leigh "did it the right way" ? or did they? Had we not gone up then what would have happened?
Widnes had they beat HKR was "doing it the right way" had they won, but we know what happened next because they lost.
Competing in SL season on season is a lot more difficult than winning a part time competition. Quins and Cats have competed and contributed.
I am not for one minute saying the franchises are perfect, and I think the next round of decisions will determine once and for all if RFL do have bottle to drop clubs that are not contributing to the comp etc.
But lets not pretend the modern game is about doing it the right way as in building long term to be successful. Which I would like to think you don't tho not sure why you do mention the "merit" type situations so much if that is the case.

We can drop the "Reds" bit after a couple of seasons

A lot of good points raised by everyone , IMHO the RFL shot themselves in the foot by introducing franchises , setting out their stalls for the elite division by telling clubs amongst other boxes to tick they must also meet certain stadium criteria to be eligible , how many teams can u list in SL with delapadated old stadiums that get away with the criteria year after year .

Expansion rugby league is doing nothing but weaken our game as a Nation , expansion teams and not grassroot or heartland teams full of Aussies strengthens our national team how ?

Many many points that am sure have been raised time and time again , we are but the speccies, little fish in a big pond , shame most fans opinions fall on deaf ears .

Lol , in that case sounds like a plan

So EVERYTHING in the 00's are great OK, if you don't know what merit means then everything else means nothing.

What if suddenly SKY ordered the Football to franchise a European league yet only allow one club per city, In Liverpool they choose Liverpool FC because of recent history, and in Manchester they choose United because of the same reason and so on and so on throughout Europe.
Would this be fair? I think it would as its a NEW comp but doing it in an exsisting comp is wrong, as for money are you seriously suggesting the backers of Wakey and Cas are richer than AT, yes the club as a whole is but thats because of where they are NOW which is because of where they were 14/15 years ago. If it had happened 27 years ago then we may well be up there, as would a few others and a few who are there now wouldnt be.
Again I ask the question would the French RL allow an English club into their elite (or any of their) league(s)?
Again I make the point if we had been allowed a tghree year grace period would we had survived because that what happened to London and Catalan and is being allowed to happed in Wales, if you think that system is fair that is your business.
As for 2004 of course we did it the right way we got there by being the best club by topping the league AND winning a Grand Final, something London, Catalan and Wales have not done, thats merit.
(and I always thought it was a mistake us going up because we couldn't compete without a grace period)
I 'pretend' nothing todays 'way' is both morally and in justice wrong.

Didn't say everything is "OK". In a perfect world we would have 20 thou modern stadia with sold out signs for a national professional sport with a proper FT tiered system below the top league with P&R. With a even comp where any team before the season starts has a chance to win SL.
We are a million miles away from that. But we are at least very slowly going in the right direction.


Nope. Because the fan in football is more numerous than in RL. Fans would not let it happen. Considering Liverpool actually want to win Premier League more than ever before kind of says the prestiege of this comp is still highly valued. Also backed up with one of biggest TV deals in sport when Premier League TV rights where sold internationally as well as mind boggling money from Sky nationally.
RL fan power backed by the newspapers having nowt better to do stopped the mergers. Difference between football and RL is football fans would have then backed them clubs, but in RL the fans buggered off leaving a lot of clubs struggling.

Who knows. But if the roles was rversed then it would be in their interests to help our game. Just like RFL did everything they could in 30's to support the expansion of the game in France. Had the governing body then decided to lok after themselves there would be no game in France at all.

Of course it would have helped us had we got the 3 years. But what do you want to see P&R from a PT league then given 3 years grace ? How would that actually work when 1 club gets relegated from possibly 3rd bottom ? Its hardly ideal itself. P&R and expansion does not work together. Celtic, Quins, Cats will show why they was put in SL maybe 5-10 years down the line - Quins has been a rocky road but are showing positive signs, and so are Cats. Celtic will be another London and hopefully succeed. If it works don't you think its worth it?

This is not merit - we had poor crowds that season because of the constant disappointment of losing out season after season against a FT SL side. We had a squad of players much better on paper than the rest. Signing up most of best players is not earning it on merit. You earn the tag of merit when you truly build something from hard work, not signing up players on a gamble that we will go up. At the time I thought it was great. The feeling of getting to SL finally and the excitement of beating Haven in such dramatic circumstances is once of my all time fav moments in sport. But looking back, what a gamble had we failed.

So you agree some kind of franchise should be in place with the "3 year grace" comment ? I can't see how having P&R and trying to expand the game and letting some clubs (could be 2 clubs with 3 year grace) would work and would be a joke in itself. If you have to change rules for some clubs for P&R to work then there is something wrong with that system.
But using my own football club as an example - the fully developed, not standing still, national sport that is football. From a club nailed on for relegation - or even going under we are now competing for Europe - all because a whim of one person decided to throw money at us. When we do lift that Premier League trophy in next few years it won't be from mainly hard graft that doing it by "merit" is rewarded with, but because of money. Modern professional sport.

Franchising is bidding for the licence to do so, there was no such thing when SL was introduced so doing it now is laughable in the extreme, as was the so called procedure last time around.

Where do I say I want to see a three year grace period? I gave it as an example.

So by winning a league and a grand final we got promoted IN SPITE of doing so? or by merit? according to my reading of the word thats merit.

It was you who brought finances into the equation so how can you then decry a team buying their way to promotion by winning the league and grand final (even though half or more of that team had actually been with us for years) .

Will the Welsh and france experiment work, well as RL has been a sport in France for years, why should a team still stuffed with Aussie imports be called a success? as for Celtic it has been shown that they cheated their way to (near to) the top, is that acceptable in 'modern pro sport'

All this has been tried since the game first broke away from RU, it hasn't worked since so will it in the future? NO it won't work.
London? dont make me laugh its just another top weekend out for the RFL heirarchy and again something which has failed before, one cup final loss and a couple of top 6 finishes could hardly be called success.

As for 'modern pro sport' thats when my time working at Leigh is done I'll put the 'pro' bit out of my mind and give more of my time and effort to Leigh East, not that I have 'fallen out' with Leigh RFC just with the whole idea of 'pro sport' its corrupt as recent years have shown, and the powers that be seem to allow it.
If people are happy with teams cheating the way to the top, well thats up to them, my own conscience won't allow me to applaud or even condone it.

Those views may well be described as those of a 'flat capper' if so I'll wear it with pride, I call it being a realist.

We have the best sport in the world but in this country (and in Europe) it has never caught on and never will (unfortunately) it is even losing ground to other sports in Australia and mores the pity in New Zealand.

LSV was built for the people of Leigh with a view to promoting Leigh to SL. I cannoot see how allowing Salford to tread the sacred turf will help Leigh get into SL. If Salford want to share then they should approach Swinton or those at Old Trafford. Apart from Leigh Centurions themselves the only SL club to play at LSV should be a merged Leigh Warriors with AT and IM in charge.

If that was the case in a franchised SL played in summer all well and good (but perhaps named Makerfield Warriors) but it will never be, it perhaps should have been with both towns having their own identities in a Winter League or even in tiers below the 'elite or SL' people say that there are not enough good players about but don't players get better when playing with and against good players? (perhaps not the current England squad but you can't win 'em all

)

Can you imagine Whiskey Cheeks' reaction to that one?

We can discuss this until cows come home (not sure where the cows have been when we say this

) and we will disagree. If you are against expansion, because "its been done before and never worked" then lets leave it.
But....

you do admit that having a 3 year license does help a club add to the competition when you said......



Of course there is "merit" from doing that. But without outside money.....ie the club spending money they don't really have unless they are successful to claw the money back, then there is something wrong there. Do you not agree that hard work, and living within your means and achieving this same goal would deserve more recognition as an achievement?
Its Pro sport and outside money, with some clubs having it and some not. Would Salford be in SL without Wilko ? Where would we be without AT.....Widnes, Barrow. Its not a level playing field and certainly not doing it the pure as white snow "right way" as is said so much.


This was ongoing since 2001. Concistently having the best PT team (obviously not including the SL club that got relegated). We had the best team because we was spending more than our income. As I already said, as a fan that season was great, but when you look back and think with the brain instead of the heart it was a risky gamble - that nearly didn't pay off if Super Tommy didn't do his magic when he did.


This is another part of whats the point discussing when you have already said expansion has been "done before and never worked". You ignore the little victories the game is making, like the many thousands playing the game that didn't before summer RL, and ignore the extra interest in the game. We have long long way to go but it has to be done, and its the history books 10 or so years down the line that will say if it was right or not. Not give up its a northern sport, and it won't work attitudes.


Which is the point I am getting at - maybe not in the extreme you explain

. Pro sport is influenced in a big way by money, RL included. Which influences a teams success or not.

Not sure what you mean here, but the governing body needs the clubs backing a major changes.

I may not agree with you on issues like this, but totally respect your views. Your contribution to Leigh Centurions is legendary

and deserves respect.
Ironically I consider myself a "flatcapper" too. RL history is fascinating, at least a lot more than the other sports. I am pro P&R as I have said many times. I was also on a similar view to most on this mb until after 2005 when slowly my views changed because of mainly my own experiences with Leigh, and the obvious need to not only try to spread the word of RL but to hold back the advances of RU/Football/Cricket as dominant sports.

Its still top dog in PNG!!!


Its not called the Greatest Game for nowt. The number of people playing the game has increased - I don't have stats myself but there is good chance its being played by more people in this country than it has since whenever - or at the very least being played throughout England. The interest in SL/RL has also increased. I may seem to post nowt but positives and may look like the my opinion is the sport is rosey and perfect. Its not but everyone else on here seems to put a downer on the progress of the sport, so I am just trying to balance that out

its disgraceful to even consider a merging of salford & Leigh I'm a proud Leyther lets keep it as Leigh! This is the only thing this town has left our club, our heritage & tradition no thanks to the pies! Please leave the one last bit of our identity we have left wot else do we have to be proud of in this town post industry? The largest town in England without a train station haha! This town is nothing without our Rugby & would be lost in many peoples hearts without it

TBH we will never agree and if your that blind and deaf as to what has gone on with Celtic and casnt even concede that cheat, Pro sport is welcome to those ideas and attitudes, and of course money is important in Pro sport but its the usual saying the rich get richer the poor get sod all and never get the chance to succeed.
If your down lets keep em that way?

Not related to Thatcher are you

of course I'd love to see Leigh in the SL but if that meant we weren't a true solely Leigh club sod that I'm happy in the Championship where we can win things!

Didn't we get told we couldn't move to the reebok years ago because it was against some werid rule they had invented???

What with Ricky Branson being told he couldn't move his franchise to leigh when he realised london was like flogging a dead horse???

yes we did

The RFL soon found them another backer when that happened

Fred - we agree to disagree.
Re Celtic I never for one moment condone Celtic/RFL regarding the illegal players if thats what you mean. I don't post much about that subject because I don't know enough about how it came about regarding the facts. It was embarressing for the game. I supported them getting into SL, but again RFL messed up with the reasoning for them getting into SL.
With what Lewis said about one team will be going down from SL then maybe this franchise thing can be used as something to hit clubs over their heads with should they not do what is asked. Thats one of the biggest perks of franchises IMO, stopping clubs like Wakey promising the earth on Stadia as an example and doing little. The next round should be very interesting hopefully.
Regarding Thatch - yeah right

.

No, he's related to Richard Lewis



Sorry LL couldn't let this opportunity go to get it in

Whatever!!!

Yes we did and one Mr M Lyndsey was the reason when he was at Wigan. What was hillarious about this was that a year later when the pies thought that they were going to be homeless, Mr M Lyndsey put it to the RFL that they play at the Reebok. It was only the fact that the fans went mad that it never happened because the RFL had accepted it. The next year or may have been the same year Mr Lyndsey went to work for the RFL.

I am totally behind this if it means SL at Leigh. East/Miners could move into the Championship and become a feeder club as per Australia.
This is the real concept of SL, regional clubs with a pyramid below them.
Lancashire Reds it is then

Actually, it was Chris Caisley, at Bradford, who said the SL Constitution forbade sharing with a football team. It was in the year we got to the GF, with Dewsbury, who planned to share with Barnsley, if they got into SL. Chris Healey, who was our CEO at the time, was incensed, and pointed out that the Constitution said no such thing. Sure enough, a couple of seasons later, when Odsal was being re-developed, Mr. Caisley's appropriately named Bulls, ground-shared with Bradford City!! Talk about hypocrisy!!

It was Lyndsey also.