Whatever AD.
As you clearly only take note of my against the mb grain comments then thats up to you.
What you seem to say is you can't have debate unless its precisely what the original thread started from for goodness sake ?? Read further down from this and you will see what I was commenting on. Threads do go on to a wider topic you know or they would be very very boring.

The poor crowds over the weekend are due to the apathy of some fans and IMO not a lot to do with the RFL......I think the largest crowd will be at the Pie Dome tonight...6K at Knowsley Rd,4K at Wakey and 11K at the Whino`s are far from impressive crowds..SL is on the up so we are led to believe from the clowns from SKY.

Why are you too depressed , it was just a game like any other wasn't it ?

Or are you saying that just because it was a DERBY game it was more important than a game against say Portsmouth or Stoke , still only 3 points at stake ?

The reason that games against opposition who bring no disernable support are not as exciting is because they lack atmosphere , especially when stadia are not even half full let alone full as most Premier footy

Especially in our division with crowds sometimes as low as 10/20 % of capacity even a relatively small band of away fans helps massively in creating atmosphere

That is why we go to watch , we want to see the away fans giving their team support , it makes us support our team more

Yes there are many good reasons we need to expend the game , but there are just as many good reasons we need to get more help in the heartlands

Gaining one fan in Wales and losing 10 in the heartlands is not expansion of the game , it is a recipe for disaster

Except Aukland Warriors, natch.

Oh, and Canberra, Newcastle, Gold Coast and Brisbane are less than 25 years old. Gotta start somewhere.

I can't wait for all you expantionists to eat humble pie. When will it become clear that the way it is being done is wrong? When the whole of Proffesional RL is up sh3t creek and the only thing left is amature RL?

South of France has a RL pedigree and structure, South of Wales doesnt.

RL is the Soccer of Convictland, RL doesnt have the same exposure in Newcastle, Cardiff or Bridgend.

Build the foundations then success can happen, expand withoutb them and failure awaits, expand too soon at the expense of heartlands and RL fails.

Nothing to do with having to share the 'gate' with the away club?

Apparently not........All gate receipts go to the RFL who then give an equal share to all of the play-off sides.

Oh I know what you were talking about, but you always deviate away from any kind of fact that shows what the RFL is doing is suspect or misguided, and crack on that everything they do is so bloody wonderful.

8700 at JJB for a sudden death play off game.

Current play off system is a joke. Top 6 was perfect. Why change it. And don't give me the bull about the league being bigger. If you're not in the top six you dont deserve to be in the play offs.

AD - I actually think this comment says it all really. I think Jon Wilkin also said similar on beeb website.

It does say it all LL, quite right.

Its confusing, pointless, and is proving to be of little interest. Many will say 'ah yes, so did the plays off when they were first introduced' but come on, this is just embarrasing.

The RFL just can't sit still and leave things alone, and all the while things like this make a laughing stock of the game.

Business end of the season and the crowds go down? Give me another sport where that happens.

Fellatio World Series - Blowjobathon Championship Playoffs.

I bet the floor looks like mine does when I wallpaper a ceiling.

But I don't always defend RFL. That is the point I was making also. I think many many things are wrong in our game. You like others pick up on points I make and seem to just say here goes defending them again. You seem selective, because on other threads you will see I don't defend RFL and actually critize.
But problem is on this mb nothing is ever acknowledged as a positive in the game. Both sides of the argument get ignored. The arguments seem to be so simplified its untrue. As if derbies will really solve problems. They never did prior 1996, and won't now. As Thatch said if it aint hurting it aint working, and I'm far from a conservative. We could all have a popular governing body that leaves everything as it is and makes little effort towards the difficult decisions. But its usually the unpopular decisions that require sacrifices that make the differences. Popular decisions usually don't achieve much.

I think the biggest issue here is that what the RFL are sewing will take at least a generation to grow. It's had that long in London and whilst some will argue that grass roots might be blooming, the apathy for the game among paying adults is still very poor.

I spend a lot of time with lads from South London, Dartford, Erith, Charlton.....lads with kids my age, and the most they've had at school is a visit from a development officer and a few session of tick and pass before moving back to football. Yet I hear that thousands of kids in the SE are playing the game. It's laughable. I'd love for it to happen but the vast majority are not interested in the slightest.

This 20 or 30 year 'plan' for want of a better word is diluting interest in many parts of the heartlands. Towns that have for 100 years produced players capeable of beating the Aussies (though I dont really see the infatuation with that to be truthful). RL will always be played in Leigh, Widnes, Fax etc, but at what cost will this experiment (for that is all it is) be? Losing 20000 fans up here and finding 5000 is South Wales isn't expansion, it's lunacy.

None of us know what will happen but at the moment its looking to be highly detrimental. Playing with it, risking it, having a go, has serious side effects if it all goes wonky but if you raise these concerns you're viewed as some kind of halfwitted flatcapper.

Personally I think some posters on the VT (the bullies that spend 24/7 on there) do more damage than good, especially in their belittling of fans that critize them with the famous flat cappers remark etc. Which kind of highlights how I get annoyed on this very message board by just putting my own opinion across because it goes against probably a majority.
We can't stay still, and IMO no matter how long it takes we have to have goals to expand the game. With very little money available to the sport compared to Cricket/Football/RU there is difficult choices to make like Celtic being put in SL.
The brand names alone for the national sides of the sports I mention are worth staggering amounts of money for example. The intl games are money spinners too. It doesn't half give their governing bodies a lot of money to use to infiltrate ( of a better word

) many areas to keep their games as top dog.
RL have lost loads of momentum regarding the national side. Beating Aussies would be a good boost to us as a starting point.

Again though, and I'm sorry if it seems like I'm pulling you up all the time, you're giving me the dream solution without considering the real consequences.

We'd all love to be on a par with RU and football, hundreds of thousands watching top flight RL every week with millions more on TV, stuffing the Aussies every year. Only a fool would think otherwise.

I'd like to be a billionaire with a big yacht and lots of page 3 hotties fetching me Dawsons pies and ice cold Stella, but until I come up with a sensible plan to acheive that which wont have a potentially serious affect to what I have at present, then I would be blindly chasing an unrealistic and unsustainable dream.

You'd get bored , I did , let the ships plumber have it all and returned to Leyth to start again , What was his name again ?

Abro, Abramo , something like that

And the first thing he said was 'these pies have too much pepper in em'

Was n`t it Darren Abro................

I don't have the answers either, but I think including Celtic with a backer into SL are the kind of steps we have to make. But RFL should not be winding club fans up like ours by stating what is basically cr@p for reasons of Celtics inclusion, should they make similar decision again. They should have told us as it was, Celtic are in SL for expansion of the game.
RFL should be working on getting more new clubs with backers or getting backers/investment for current expansion clubs in Championship, and giving them a pathway to SL as a goal and incentive. Not easy especially at this moment in time.
Get rid of the salary cap and base it on affording to pay, and get rid of quota rules because Leigh for example shouldn't need them anyway. This then makes Championship comp more of level playing field, as this seems to be a major grevience from heartland club fans against Development area clubs. So wouldn't spoil our comp.
But also leave door open for heartland clubs, but not with the carrot dangling we had last time, like when Widnes was allowed to apply only for them to have the going under thrown in their faces at the death for example.
Our biggest problem is lack of money. But we need to expand to get in the big league of money like other sports.....its a catch 22. Heartland clubs may suffer, but because of lack of money what do you do. Its them difficult choices or popular choices again.

A few problems with your post

You suggest the RFL should be looking for investors for the current Championship expansion clubs , but not for heartland clubs ? , Why

You suggest they leave the door open ? how

You suggest that we need to expand to get more money into the game , very true , but would that money find it's way into Championship heartland clubs , or will it fund a bigger stronger top tier that will then want more and bigger expansion clubs ?

I have no empathy with the RFL quite simply because they have no empathy with the heartland clubs outside SL , they care not one iota about them

I do agree that the inclusion of Celtic was too good an opportunity to miss , but the way they did it smacks of conivance and mistrust

I dont want to mistrust our governing body , I want them to be truthfull and honest , I want to have faith in them that they want all clubs to prosper

Until I see that I will criticise them for all my worth

RL is skint. It makes sense to have outside investment in an expansion area. You yourself have stated you don't have problem with RFL investing in expansion areas - so why not have outside investment too or instead of.
Ideally the outside investment net should include heartlands. I was offering ideas about expansion.


Again I'm not full of the answers as I said originally. But for example if sky money can be increased so more clubs can be added to SL, then this could be option to work on. There would/should always be the option of replacing a club and that I hope will be a serious threat for clubs to keep them on their toes. Under P&R stopping clubs entering SL because of facilities would have been difficult while clubs like Wakey are in there. The licences should help to ensure Wakey do sort themselves out or they should be out - afterall they made promises they never kept about their stadium.


I remember Mr Chairman saying on here about a conversation he had with some RU bloke and the amount of money invested at grass roots etc was staggering. And the fact RFL don't get anywhere near. I would be interested to know just what that investment was in % terms of income the RU body brings in. Until the RFL can rake in the money then its not going to make its way down. I don't include SL TV money because in my book clubs by being in the comp earn it as such - I am not trying to wind anyone up by saying this. Its for the benefit of SL clubs to make investment at grass roots also. A lot of money goes in wages, but who begrudges them guys a reasonable wage whether they are imports or homegrown or whatever. The Chev Walker incident highlights this. Though bad injuries happen at our level and amateur level. Don't know the score with RL, but I do know even at Amateur level in RU that players that are badly injured (life threatening) are well looked after, as I know of a incident that happened at Eccles.


I don't obviously have any contact with them. But the shortage of money can't help the situation. But I do think speaking for our own clubs actions we don't help ourselves. But I know you don't agree but I do think Toulouse in C is good and makes a change from the norm. Toulouse is probably in my top 5 of away games even though we lost. The whys etc have been done to death though



Fair enough.