And what about the historic debt owed by the club? This would have to paid off wouldn't it? Would this come from the cash from the new investors or are you planning on sacking that off and starting afresh? (Wouldn't this then stop our SL ambitions in it's tracks?)

Surely by now any fan with SL ambitions realises we are a decade away anyway. I would put fev and fax in before us and maybe even Batley tbh. With the current model I just don't see us being at that level. we need to turn the train around first and that needs new track.

Good point mish.

Ha ha surprised you haven't heard me tapping away at he keypad all day your so close.

I felt from the tone of your previous message we were very close.

Short walk for both of us to LSV from here.

Will have to have a chat over the garden fence now the weather is showing signs of improving.

As things stand at the moment the real danger is, if they go to two leagues of 10,and we miss out on one of those spots

That's another good point John.

We should mate hoping for a good summer on pitch and off it. Less stormy weather. Was bloody soaked this afternoon.

That's true j.c. but does anyone think sky want that? How much do they get from the premier sports deal? I would bet its more than nowt and that any div 2 would be on there and get £0 per team.

Just a quick one before bed.

Good point. The current level of debt is very significant and will play its part in any takeover. The debt level dependant how great could be delt with within a buisness plan potentially with payment plans to creditors and HMRC if not out of control. One things for sure there is no doubt the current and historic debt renders the existing shares of SCL completely worthless so the people who own then should be more than willing to sign them over.

In reality the only benifit to taking over the existing Ltd company SCL would be to secure the boxes that we have already ticked in relation to a SL bid.

I think reality is we're not heading to SL any time soon though some will not like me for saying this, so maybe the current board switching off the life suport would not be a bad thing and make it easy to get a new company with a new share allocation to sell out to fans with starting from scratch I.e Widnes.

We are going into fine detail here and into things that need people far wiser than me to deal with but I can bring the people who deal with these issues to the table as and when required indeed one person who is capable of advising on this has contacted me today to pledge help.

Lots of ifs buts and maybes and lots of food for thought.

We got 750 quid from premier sports last year I was told.

A real slap in the face.

The ownership of the club is not the problem , it is the running of the club that is , so just changing the ownership solves nothing, then just having different people making the same mistakes achieves nothing

deep down i dont believe they want two leagues of ten professional clubs,i just think they want the so called elite clubs to receive more money and let the rest fend for themselves, at least for the last two years of the current sky deal

Agreed mate.

That's why it needs the right people on board who have learned from mistakes of the past and have entusiasm and new energy and ideas and most of all ability to finance certain things to get the ball rolling. The fan putting in 10 quid is every bit as important as the local buisness willing to invest thousands in a plan like this without either one it won't happen.

I've seen you post for a few months now and it seems you have history with the club it seems many people do but cards on table would you back this? Do you see potential in a fan owned club? In your opinion could it work?

I am genuinely intrested in your reply to this post.

Thanks.

No, it was hard enough with 7 shareholders, having 1,000 would be impossible, all IMO of course

Fair comment and that's why I asked as you are a voice of experience it seems.

My only comment would be 1000+ people sharing the same goal dream and vision having a vested intrest in a long term future with realistic ambitions may be a big animal to have driving the club via a elected board. Would also form the basis of longer term growth plan to build a comunity driven club on the back of rather than just having outright owners with differing view points and varying levels of intrest/ input?

A strong board and local buisness suport to serve the fan ownership could work and shouldn't be dismissed IMO.

You asked, I replied honestly, the problem you will have is every decision you make will upset at least 40% of your shareholders, sometimes 70/80 % , eventually you will upset enough of them enough times for them to stop supporting you financially

You state new people who will learn from past mistakes, history and my experience tells me new people just make the same mistakes along with a whole load of new ones , especially when they are ' successful businessmen ' as quite often their ego's get in the way, that is a major part of the current problems at the club , there is no normal business experience that can prepare for running a sports club , success breeds arrogance, and that arrogance can and will prevent the right things being done

Once again, my opinion after many years of thought on the subject and several years of direct involvement seeing mistakes being made

A bit of advice, dont seek the advice of those that have succeeded at bigger clubs , get it from those that failed

Well there's a first - I actually agree with Starbug!!





In theory I'd love to see this at the club, the reality however is much different and my next post on this subject was going to be along the lines of what Starbug says in his opening paragraph:

[ithe problem you will have is every decision you make will upset at least 40% of your shareholders, sometimes 70/80 % , eventually you will upset enough of them enough times for them to stop supporting you financially[/i

I did briefly mention this on my opening post on this thread and it definitely needs more thought for those interested in investing.

I tried to reply with a quote then and it messed up.
The link to the Lisa web page is on the bottom of my posts click on it and it tells you how to join.
Now several year ago Lisa was asked to look into having a supporters trust we got Supporters Direct down and several other people and held a fans forum of all fans including LISA members to listen to how it works.

We then asked Lisa members to vote, either at the special meeting we had or a proxy vote.
The result was 80/20 percent against.

No saying fan involvement couldn't help the club, this could still happen as I recall at a fans forum it was said that the touchdown club and Lisa could have a share for every £20000 we gave the club, so far we haven't been given this, but could this not be the way to have a say in the club, more Lisa and touchdown members = more shares owned by the fans no need for trusts etc. Eventually the more money the fans invest the more say they have, you still need people willing to run the club how have the time to do so and the club best interests at heart.

And IMHO the people we have are not doing a bad job , they just don't have the money to make all our dreams come true.

I do take onboard what your saying and appreciate your answer to my questions thanks.

Mish i agree with you it does need more thoughts, i have a few ideas but im by no means stating i have all the answers.

I was/am simply trying to establish what kind of genuine intrest COULD be generated in an alternative to the current model in which the club operates. Ive seen many people mention this that and the other so i was keen to see just who if anyone would be willing to suport something new.

It is my belief that at some stage all options will need to be assessed as the simple fact is not enough people are coming through the gates or investing in the current structure and long term i just cant see how things carry on as they currentley are.

I dont know the current directors and have stated many times in this thread that im not having a go at anyone on the contray having met Trevor quite a few times now and seen his efforts first hand ive gone on record as saying i admire his hard work and the fact he is doing it for nothing. I have also pledged support and help to him in any way i can i just dont have the confidence to invest in the current buisness model as its clearly not working and is reliant upon hand outs to survive.

If its a watching brief for the time being lets see how things go then so be it, i have my fears based on what i see but i have been quite suprised by some of the people who have sent messages of suport and if we all get together at some stage with others who are likeminded then you just never know.

Cheers

Andy

Dick do you recall the lies told at those meetings, I do. With the facts since do you think we would get the same outcome? Then we had AT throwing hundreds of thousands at it, now we have.............
First time with the consortium we had PC telling us how we would break even or make a small profit, I laughed then in 2003........
The shareholder input needs to be £100k pa and that was at HP, I don't know what retained income the LSV contract gives us but listening to the forecasts then its similar
Salford were not deducted a point and both Bradford and Wakefield are still in SL so why should we be excluded from the second ten with a well financed plan in place as a newco?

I'd be interested if I thought that there was a strong leadership in place alongside a robust shareholders agreement carefully constructed to avoid the problems mentioned by starbug. People will have to grow up and realise that having a share and therefore a vote is not the same as being a consultee on every decision.

Another concern is that we have tended to have people in charge whose experience is largely B2B and this is not very useful for marketing the club (as evidenced by recent communications). Looks like you're no different on that front and I wonder who's out there who can come into your team to strengthen that most important aspect of this business, the B2C marketing. I think that the required level of marketing expertise is unlikely to come from local solicitors and estate agents.

Well put and understanding our market to create affordable products they want to buy is critical, but you don't need to be a B2C guru to do that

No need for a guru. But enough experience and nous to avoid boo-boos would be a start.