Imagine If the 'multi club' World club challenge format takes off, imagine if its popular, entertaining, taken seriously by the Aussies, and an English side could win it. we could scrap the grand final go back to first past the post and the big end of year event would be the World club challenge Final.... and you'd still give mid table teams something to aim for by finishing in the top four and qualifying for the WCC.

ahhh But then clubs would be accused of aiming for fourth place and a WCC spot, and fans would start moaning and saying it was better when you had to win the grand final to become world champions........




it all seemed so much simpler when we were rubbish

After reading this thread i have had my mind firmly changed... I realise i was wrong. The compelling counter argument of 'people are just moaning because we didnt win the Grand Final' is a strong one.

So lets ignore the sanitisation of the game, the half paced tempo of league games and the flat atmospheres... Lets be grateful that we have the greatest game on earth.

I promise, going forward, to not find myself being bored watching rugby league.

I believe loosing last seasons grand final tarnished some people's thoughts and you can see arguments for & against the play off system. It could be worse, we could okay for 90 mins and fall to the floor at any opportunity just like football. "Come on the Wire"

Are you from Wigan?

Don't be daft , he can read & write.

This

It seems in this debate that you can't seem to point out to people often enough, that The Premier League and Champions League are two separate competitions. just because two English teams won the champions League trophy it didn't mean that they they usurped the Champions of England.

Sorry City, Chelsea won a 'bigger' cup so they've leapfrogged above you...yeah right

I actually think the quality of games has increased from the games I've seen. Granted I didn't see the thumping Wigan gave Widnes but overall I think the intensity up until the last round of games seemed higher than last season.

I don't agree that we should have a top 8 play off but that's the way it is, and I'd take a play-off system to decide the champions over the boring FPTP format. With the play offs it means you get the top teams playing each other more often which I think is better for the game. I mean would we rather see the title decided infornt of 5,000 at Salford or 70,000 at OT.

Last year we had a situation where we played Saints and got beat. We played them again two weeks later and won rendering the first game meaningless apart from having to play an extra game in between.

I don't know how that is better for the game.

It's not anti Leeds sentiment your are a top, top side, or 'sour grapes' by yours truly, but, I'm still not persuaded by the 'Play Off' argument.

If we accept that Wigan win the title at Salford (God forbid), and it mean't something, do you think that it wouldn't sell out? Your 5,000 figure is there to make your point and in some way makes mine. The reason that there might be only 5,000 at Salford is because "it's only the hub cap, the minor prem' blah de blah

What I would offer is that the Grand Final is now a stand out fixture, an event that attracts a broad spectrum of rugby league supporters from non participating clubs, great marketing, a bit like the Challenge Cup only closer to home.

Do you think they wouldn't sell out OT if the reward was tweaked? For example, based on last year Wigan were Champions (bit of a sorry theme here) and Warrington and Leeds were playing for a big pot of Sky cash to spend on next years recruitment and the second spot in an expanded WCC?

im not reading that clearly...?? are you suggesting you could crown a team champions and have the two runners up to them play infront of 75,000 fans for no trophy no title just some nominal prize money and spot in a WCC competition.?

we cant sell out the halton stadium for a knock out game that gets the winner a spot at wembley big prize money and national media coverage......... surely your completely dreaming. we can only ever sell out old trafford for a grand final.

we cant even sell out a football stadium by getting half of the league to play local derbies in it on one day.......

I've got another suggestion for you - a strictly policed salary cap which would produce a level playing field and therefore the competitive games you all crave. FYI London currently spend to the limit of the cap. There's a rumour in London that Simon Moran wants to explore the huge potential of London and introduce celebrities to RL. He may buy out David Hughes. That would then give you fixtures you could get excited about!

The main reason that the format doesn't currently work is the lack of competitive teams.

Warrington, Wigan, Saints, Leeds etc all know that they can get into the top 8 by picking and choosing the games they want to compete in and the games they want to rest players in.

If we had 14 competitive teams, then the top teams wouldn't have that luxury, or if we there were less teams getting into the playoffs we wouldn't have that luxury.

As it is, there are currently only about 5 decent teams in the league and there are 8 playoff places, so the league becomes very pointless.

8 years ago we were one of the mediocre teams, so it was far more exciting as we didn't know if we would make it to the playoffs or not, so most games had some significance.

We are a top team now, and for the top teams, winning the league has no value to it currently. The league is just there to get yourself into the playoffs.
This devalues some of the league fixtures but it is accepted because that is how playoffs work.

The amount of teams that get into the playoffs has been increased to 8 to keep more teams with an interest for longer.
This devalues even more of the league fixtures for the teams in the top 4 to 6 places.

Leeds have won from outside the top 4 for 2 years running, which has made teams believe that it is not vital to finish in the top 2 or 4.
This devalues even more of the league fixtures for the top teams.

Glad I started this post. Some good views both side of the fence.

For me the devaluation of the importance of 2 points and a win and the habitual resting of players means I shall not be renewing my two VP tickets for next season. I shall just pick my games.

Nothing to do with sour grapes, it's that weekends are precious leisure time for me and there are better things to do than sit and watch a game waiting for full time to come.

Just wait for the explosion of anger on here when the 19 is named at 2pm and fans see who is rested this week!!

--just about sums it up for me as well--i actually caught the flu watching the widnes game , which cost me a few days off work ,and for what-the early rounds,i find,imo,are pointless!no s-t for me nxt season im afraid!will just choose the games to go on from now on

One point I would make is that most fans of these decent teams, while they're quite happy to see the play offs reduced to five, are rather quieter regarding possible merits of a four or three team format. A cynic might think that this was a case of pulling up the ladder behind them. Of course this doesn't apply to FPTP purists but I've yet to read many of their suggestions as to how lost revenue might be recovered, were their preferred method of deciding the title winner adopted.

It could well be that some of the previously 'rested' players were in fact injured.

Thinking more about the game now I think I am missing the following from the current game.

1. Watching individual flair players and play with spontaneity (Woods, Schofield, Hanley, Phil Blake, Davies, Gill, Meninga, Miles this list could go on and on etc)

2. Good old biff. Individual square ups between enforcers (Boyd, Tamati, Sorenson, Skerret, etc)

3. Contested scrums / win against the head / penalties for feeding.

4. Atmosphere containing tension, confrontation and anticipation.

5. League atmosphere like in 1993/94 when we were top of the league with one game left.

Yes, this is what I miss.

that 1994 season while a great season had its faults .....and just on that while you mention missing flair players we had Craig teitzel and John thursfield in that squad two of the most ordinary wire players ever to pull on a jersey.

We all know that Russel Smith incorrectly penalised us in the wigan game and then took us ten meters back to allow Botica to win the game for wigan. but also to allow Bradford to go above us on points difference didnt Leeds rest their entire team in a game against Bradford because they were due to play at Wembley, and Bradford ran up a cricket score.

So even with that format we should have been Champions and We should have played Brisbane in the world club challenge game and denied Wigan their greatest ever moment

Yes we seriously got shafted by Leeds.

Mind no season is ever lost by one incident or one game I bet we dropped points cheaply in other games during the campaign.

When did LWF come back?

The 1993/94 season was indeed a great memory and until Tony Smith arrived it was my favourite time as a Warrington fan. However it is easy to look back through rose tinted glasses:

Back then people used to pick and choose their matches more than they do today. We got over 11000 for that infamous Wigan game where Botica kicked the penalty at the end to beat us. We got 7800 for Saints at home. The rest of the season the gates were around 5000 or so with some gates of 4000 or less.

And also back then the league table was always distorted by some teams having games in hand. I remember us being top for a while but never quite believing we would stay there as Wigan had a number of games in hand on us, which usually you would expect them to win.

The 6-8 game with the Botica kick has gone down in history as the "we was robbed" moment but we still had our destiny in our hands at that point. What really killed us, was a few weeks after that, Leeds smashed us in the Challenge Cup and then we lost the next two league games to Halifax and Bradford. Although we were still top after that, I remember the mood at the time was "we've blown it".

At the end of the season Wigan had to play 10 games in the last 4 weeks to clear their games in hand, and they lost 4 of them including surprising ones to Hull, Hull KR and Sheffield Eagles. This meant the title race was back on.

The really disappointing moment for us was we went to Central Park in the middle of their fixture congestion, when their form was rocky and they were tired, and we lost quite easily. My memory might be rocky on this but I think Davies was missing that game. I knew then we were not deserving of being champions. We won our last few games but after that, Wigan only needed to win theirs to be champions.

Yes that final game of the season for us against Sheffield Eagles was a great atmosphere, but no better than the recent Challenge Cup semis or Saints away in the last playoff last year. The idea that season was one of great atmosphere and interest in rugby league because of a tight three way tussle for the title, is a myth, as is the idea that we were only robbed by Russell Smith's dodgy decision. We had it other opportunities to win the title after that and if we are honest with ourselves we weren't quite up to being champions with the players we had, thought Jonathan Davies took us very very close.

My favourite 'concept' is to reduce SL to 12 teams and lose the magic weekend and reintroduce P&R. Everyone plays everyone else home and away (22 games) then split the league into top 6 and bottom 6, teams keep their points already accrued and each team plays every other team in their half home and away (another 10 games).

Clubs can budget for the season knowing they will play 16 home and 16 away games.
The Sky excitement starts about round 17 with the will they or won't they make the top 6.
The last 10 weeks of the season has 3 games each week between top teams producing playoff intensity.
The promoted team has a greater chance of staying up as their last 10 games are against the supposedly weaker teams in the league.
Risky for top teams to 'rotate' against lesser teams as this could cost them at the end of the season.
The top team after 32 games are Champions.

So, let me get this straight. In a season where the winner was first past the post there were still cases where league games didn't matter one jot, at least not to some teams.

Yes Mr biscuit I am dreaming and there is nothing wrong with that if it's fairer and reinvigorates the competition?

I didn't suggest a runners up comp as such, but, was using last season's fixtures as a guide. There wasn't a ban on the League Champions also being in the Play off final

There is 'work' to be done on marketing the game in general, not just the low gates in the early play off rounds or regular week apathy. Surely the first small step is to question what's right and wrong with the game and have an open debate especially if it can be handled by people not referring to grapes of the sour kind every time there is a disagreement? (not that I think you have BTW)