Is your optimism level increasing?

A fairly low bar I suspect.

No, I'm just saying the video content is good and I like Daryl Powell.

I still think our squad isn't good enough to win the title, our pack especially is weak and we lack leaders. I think we might finish just outside the playoffs in 2022.

But then I could be wrong. I remember saying something similar the year Price came in and I said rubber duckie was talking rollocks for saying we would finish top 4, and we ended up making 2 finals.

If we end up outperforming my expectations I'll gloss over these gloomy predictions I made in the off season and dig out the old posts when I was saying over several years we should go for Powell and say this proves I was right.

Fair enough, it was a genuine question.

I recognise the shortcomings with the pack but with Widdop and Williams you would think we should have enough leadership on the pitch. This year I have decided to allow myself a bit of optimism on the basis that the pain endured as an abject season unrolls is no less acute with a pessimistic outlook, so I may as well give myself 3 months of something to look forward to.

I am impressed with Powell so far in how he has come across. A million miles away from what we had to endure for the last 4 years. It is clear he can see what is wrong with our team on how we play and mentality which is rather at odds with Price's outgoing view. I know whose opinion I trust.

I also trust Powell but it's based on track record elsewhere: he turned Leeds round from being an ageing squad starting to slide in comfort zone into a young team that would go on to dominate RL, won the Championship with Featherstone, took over Cas when they were bottom of the league and took them to top in 4 years despite having to lose his best individual player at three points in that period (Chase, Clark, Solomona).

As regards to how coach comes across....it's encouraging but we hear this every time we have a new coach. When Steve Price took over and did his first fans event we had people on here saying what a breath of fresh air it was after the TS era to have someone as positive and with as much passion as Price and they all liked what he said about making us tougher and more resilient. Once we're on a losing streak that turns into "how could he motivate anybody..." etc.

It will be the same with Powell, early doors fans will hang on every word he says as though he's the great oracle of management then once we've lost a few and he starts having a moan in press conferences about refs and injuries we'll hear the same on here "how can he motivate people with his negative demeanour" blah blah.

In the end what he says or sounds like is secondary to the evidence of what we see on the pitch. I think he has proved that he is a good coach and his methods have worked in different environments, if they don't work here then some fundamental questions need to be asked about our set up.

I think this is exactly the reason some of us are a bit more upbeat than usual though, Sally. Powell tends to get a squad to outperform. I too worry about the pack a bit, but then I remember what Powell has done with lesser players than we have and it makes me feel a bit better about it. A spine of Widdop, Williams, Clark and Ratchford is not to be sniffed at, and the rest of the squad isn't exactly put in the shadows by the likes of Cats, Wigan or Leeds. In fact, apart form Hill, where have we lost quality? Leeds have signed one of rejects as a key player don't forget. Saints are the still the team to beat but they're only marginally better in terms of squad depth, and only really in the forwards.

Roll on 2022, [imay[/i not win it next year but what's new? We've as good a chance as Cats, Wigan or Leeds, if not better.

I wonder how many clubs would be happy to do a straight swap “squad for squad”? Or to put it another way , barring Saints how many squads would you be happy to swap ours for. The answer should be enlightening as to where as a supporter you really think we are.
I think this is a fairer reflection than just concentrating on an obvious area of weakness.
I have to say, maybe Catalans but even then I’d have my worries.

Thats an interesting question. I think the majority wouldn't swap an entire squad, as there's an emotional attachment to the players, who on the whole, we routed for during the year just gone. Better the devil you know comes into play, plus, a very strong majority believe we'd have done better with a different coach. In 2022, we'll get a feel as to whether it was a coaching issue, rather than the squad not being good enough.

It’s a useful exercise though look at another teams squad compare and decide whether as a whole they are better or worse than ours.

Yes, it's an interesting exercise, but my point still stands that I don't think many of us can take off the P&B lensed glasses, while doing so. Also, the increased optimism that were going to be a better team with a new coach at the helm.

Ok, don’t bother then…

I agree with MPN that there will be plenty of the subjective in a squad swap, but still think that it's an interesting exercise.

I'd definitely take Saints (and I don't want everyone to mock when we beat them to nil) and I would have a serious think about Catalans based on last year, and Leeds based on my perception of their recruitment and building on last year.

This isn't to say that I think we will finish 4th btw and I'm always a little concerned that Hull FC will 'come good' one day, but wouldn't or have never considered swapping.

On paper the Hull pack is excellent and Gale could be brilliant for them. They are a good team, I don't know why it went wrong for them last year after a great start but I expect them to be good in 2022 even if only for the start or finish.

We are as good as anything except saints IMO, they are the team to beat and all of the silverware is theirs to lose IMO.

Ours to lose is a bit strong. We look strong on paper but there is one big question to be answered and that's Welsby at fullback and Dodd at 7 without the mercurial Coote around the place. I can at least see that needing some time to settle down.

Leeds will be stronger than last year, although I still see their coaching being a big weakness. Catalans could be great, but it all depends on how much they want it. Last year was a big season for them, can they maintain the attitude and professionalism without Maloney? It really seemed to spike up when he joined and they didn't get the away hammerings they usually get where you can tell they're not really there mentally.

I'd take those squads over Warrington's currently. On paper I'd take Hull's too, but they never get anywhere near approaching their potential. I thought last year they were simply too big and were very easy to move about and tire out. Wigan could be a lot better if their new props are a success, as Wane's coaching and mentality (Let's not pretend Peat, Briers and O'Loughlin are really in charge) will make them tougher to beat.

If I had to bet on it I'd go Saints, Leeds, Catalans, Warrington, Wigan, Hull. It should really be an interesting year as Leeds, Wire, Hull and Wigan will all be looking to be a lot better than this year. If Toulouse turn up with a few wins we could end up with a very competitive league.

It's all yours to lose, I wish it wasn't but it is, you just highlighted the big question marks over all of the main competition and they're far bigger than the question marks which hang over saints! Both Welby and Dodds were part of your first team last season which won superleague. Add that to the fact that Welsby is the best player in the world going off how excited most saints fans and rugby pundits get when talking about him. FWIW I think he will be fine for you at fullback, although I concede that Coote has been very good for you and I think he will be missed at some points in the season.

I think we have as good a squad as Catalans and Wigan with better play makers but a weaker pack, it will all be interesting and I think I will enjoy the season more than I have the past few, even if we can all only hope that 2022 sees the return of the bokklers.

The only squad I would swap with would be Saints.

Leeds & Hull better props without a doubt, but I think our spine and back row are far better. With Leeds Austin is very hot and cold and Sezer has had injury issues over the last couple of years.

Catalan is a close one, but I’d still favour Warrington - club bias no doubt having an impact. I think Catalan have a bit to prove to me still that they are the real deal.

Maloney is a really big loss for Catalans, a far bigger loss than coote will be for Saints. They have recruited well to replace Maloney but Maloney was bedded in and made that team tick, it may take a while for that to be replicated fully but they should be up to speed for the business end if not before.

If any of our players fall for his dummy they want dropping

Very true, but one or 2 may struggle with that “hit and hope” bomb of his.

Maloney leaving was the cause of my doubts as well.

Yep, one day Hull will gel and win the GF. On the other hand I’ve been thinking the same about us for over a decade.

If we are hypothetically going to swap squads then the first thing I’d look at is the spine of 1, 6, 7 and 9. If we think about our first choice props who will setting the platform, they’re both internationals (and with Currie and Holmes in the second row it’s not looking as shabby as we maybe think it is). So at Warrington we have in the spine:

1) Ratchford (international and Harry Sunderland winner)
6) Widdop (international and proven class in the NRL)
7) Williams (international and didn’t flop in the NRL)
9) Clark (international and Lance Todd trophy winner)

Are we really going to give that up because Leeds, Wigan, Cats and Hull have back up forwards that we perceive to be better? Leeds have signed a couple of NRL journeymen at half back. They’re good on their day, we know that, but they failed in the NRL. Suddenly they sign for Leeds and they’re world-class. Harry Smith, Sam Powell and Kade Kust? The Wigan forwards had better lay a decent platform because I haven’t seen anything to convince me that they’ll be tearing it up. Cats, yes they have some proven NRL experience there. It’s a closer one, but I’m not sure they’ll be the same without Maloney. Hull? Some big Polynesian forwards there. Not sure why Gale and Connor are seen as superior to what we have though.

The most interesting thing about that video of Powell’s first meeting the other day was his references to that famous Legacy book. One of the big things to take away from that book is the bit about picking a team on character, rather than just individual abilities. Maybe that has played a big part in Powell’s decision to let some of our bigger ‘stars’ go.

I think we don't have enough 'nastiness' in our squad.
Our pack is almost 'too nice'.

Which of our players do the opposition really dislike because they get under their skin?
McIllorum springs readily to mind. Truly horrible player and full of 'grubiness' BUT there is no doubt in my mind he brings a lot to Cats - even if that means he gets more attention from the opposition giving others more time.
Jake Connor is another one.
I think many opposition fans would put Benny Westwood in that category, but we don't have a player like him now I think.

Then again in this day and age, and the way the game is played does it matter that much?

Oli Holmes isn't a "Nice" player when he gets riled up and has Flattened a fair few people who have had a go at him He hits wellabove his weight and i'm happy as pie we have him.
But yeah i get what you mean about our forwards are too nice and not enough nastiness. But hopefully if we click and get Bullock and Butler firing right we'll be fine

Whether someone has past international caps or previously won an award in a big game is just a signal of reputation, what matters is how good they are now. Roy Asotasi had loads of international caps and had once been a top 2 or 3 prop in the NRL but that didn't mean anything when he played for us.

We have people on this forum talking up all our 'internationals' for years. Next time we're playing crap and 12 points down, look round the field at all the internationals and ask yourself which one of these is going to step up and show their international calibre and take the initiative to turn the game around. Or are they all just kind of frozen and going through the motions and powerless to change the direction of the game?

I would not swap Clark for anyone in the league, he is 100% top class. The other three....on the evidence of last year they were not the players they had been a few years earlier.